What Factors influence the Smallmouth population

[Jim Spriggs]

I have a question for the group to consider.  How can we make the smallmouth population better—defined as, say, increasing the number and share of fish in the 15+ size range?  

I’ve seen this talked about in passing on some posts, but it would be nice to see what folks think. 

My understanding is a fish population structure is a function of genetics, habitat (both micro, such as the amount of rock, and macro, such as topography), forage, water quality and quantity, angler behavior, and management.  

So, which factors are the most important in the Meramec?  

Is it angler behavior?  Is there too little catch and release?  Too much accidental gigging of Bronze fish?  Too much fishing pressure and too much fish mortality from catching, even when released?

Is it competition from Spotted bass?

Is it the regulations?  It would be a fight to institute, but how much would longer seasonal closures, more special management miles, or longer seasonal closures matter?  While the fishing improved in the special management areas after they were created, it didn’t increase the number of larger fish as much as MDC hoped. 

Or, are the factors limiting the number of bigger fish beyond our or MDC control, such as topography or forage?

Or, is my question assuming something that isn’t true— that the smallmouth population needs to be better?  

[Hog Wally]

Phil,  just lock it out now before it goes sideways.  Lol.   Just kidding with you jim.   Here's my fantasy Smallie team    Closed season January to June.  No size or creel limit on spots and open year round (including meanmouths). 2 fish limit on smallmouth from the beginning to the Mississippi.  Length of those two fish doesn't mean anything to me   Gigging............. hmmmmmm.   I don't know other than rotate 10 mile stretches to be open per year and close all other stretches.   Easier to police the open stretches.   Massive fine on any and all smallmouth infractions. Otters, keep trapping the heck out of them.  allow landowners to pull gravel from their property on the river  

[tjm]

2 hours ago, Jim Spriggs said:

the factors limiting the number of bigger fish beyond our or MDC control, such as topography or forage?

Or, is my question assuming something that isn’t true— that the smallmouth population needs to be better?  

Not knowing the Meramec  up close and personal, I think these should be examined prior to any changes of regulations, forage is probably the main ingredient in size production of any animal. A comprehensive study of forage  in the system shouldn't take  an awful long time to complete, set up a coop or something that would get a gang of students working on it. Either find the cause of poor growth or eliminate forage as a factor.

I have always thought latitude a major factor in smallmouth size.

23 minutes ago, Hog Wally said:

allow landowners to pull gravel from their property on the river  

How do you think this will affect the river as whole, or smallmouth in particular? Has this improved some other body of water in the past?

[Hog Wally]

1 minute ago, tjm said:

Not knowing the Meramec  up close and personal, I think these should be examined prior to any changes of regulations, forage is probably the main ingredient in size production of any animal. A comprehensive study of forage  in the system shouldn't take  an awful long time to complete, set up a coop or something that would get a gang of students working on it. Either find the cause of poor growth or eliminate forage as a factor.

I have always thought latitude a major factor in smallmouth size.

How do you think this will affect the river as whole, or smallmouth in particular? Has this improved some other body of water in the past?

Every few miles there used to be a dredge pulling gravel out creating up to 30' deep holes    After big floods they would do it all over again.   Minimal disturbance to the river. Got rid of millions of tons of loose fill gravel.  Created man made winter holes. Win win win.  

[tjm]

Why were these dredgings stopped?

[Hog Wally]

20 minutes ago, tjm said:

Why were these dredgings stopped?

Dnr.   But instead of multiple mom and pop operations we inherited monster operations that without a doubt change miles of corridor.  My thoughts on the gravel are just from my experience from my youth and I fished a lot of these dredge holes while they were digging no less.   It's merely my opinion from what I seen then.  All I see now is mostly shallow gravel runs.  Am I right?  Probably not 100%.  It's my opinion only.  I'm diving in my foxhole now. 

[tjm]

Probably won't be getting any changes from DNR, fishing doesn't seem to be their focus.

Used to be a lot of gravel mining here as well and the creek has certainly changed since it stopped, I'm not sure why it stopped, but if anything it seems there are more big smallmouth caught now than then. And this is as to what I see and hear of, science might prove my observations false or others might have different observations. Also, the size and nature of the annual floods has changed over that same period, so that may be a factor in the channel changes, on this stream. I wonder if there are less wintering holes capacity wise or if they are just in different spots and not as abrupt.

I'll throw another question out there with Jim's; as pertains to forage and habitation, what impact do you guys see or suppose increased power boating has on these streams? Bottom disturbance, bank erosion, debris disturbance etc. must have some effect on things like crawdads and minnows? 

I'm guessing that any of the above factors is worth a couple of objective studies.

[Gavin]

Gravel dredging really does not help.  Dig a big hole and the hole will erode the upstream banks faster. If your gonna take some gravel skim a big gravel bar, and stay out of the creek. Figure that cattle, gravel operations, and development are the biggest unrestrained threats.

[Smalliebigs]

1 hour ago, Hog Wally said:

Phil,  just lock it out now before it goes sideways.  Lol.   Just kidding with you jim.   Here's my fantasy Smallie team    Closed season January to June.  No size or creel limit on spots and open year round (including meanmouths). 2 fish limit on smallmouth from the beginning to the Mississippi.  Length of those two fish doesn't mean anything to me   Gigging............. hmmmmmm.   I don't know other than rotate 10 mile stretches to be open per year and close all other stretches.   Easier to police the open stretches.   Massive fine on any and all smallmouth infractions. Otters, keep trapping the heck out of them.  allow landowners to pull gravel from their property on the river  

Awesome Aaron!!!!....agreed on all 

You must realize these fish Aaron knows very well, they are his friends that he gets to see annually.

Slow growth rates are a big factor Jim.

Protection and angler education on these fish and how they live and feed in the corridor is huge.

Spotted bass invasion is not good....I don' know if you saw the dinosaur Hybrid Smallie/Spot I caught yesterday??? But after we landed it I just sat there with my mind racing about how many times this fish spawned and how old it was....how much has it effected the native Smallie population???

At first I wanted to fillet it and make dang sure it was out of the river but, both Aaron and I were in awe of it as it was just an amazing fish so we couldn't harm it's Unicorn arse.....it was a catch 22 going thru my brain like a freight train.

So let' just say it isn't gonna be in the river ever again and it will have an awesome rest of it's life and we may see a pic of again someday.

But very cool thread Jim....I just hope it can be civil....I accept all opinions 

 

and Don't want to ban anyone's form of fishing especially gigging.

[Smalliebigs]

1 hour ago, Hog Wally said:

Dnr.   But instead of multiple mom and pop operations we inherited monster operations that without a doubt change miles of corridor.  My thoughts on the gravel are just from my experience from my youth and I fished a lot of these dredge holes while they were digging no less.   It's merely my opinion from what I seen then.  All I see now is mostly shallow gravel runs.  Am I right?  Probably not 100%.  It's my opinion only.  I'm diving in my foxhole now. 

It's just that Aaron your opinion is from someone who has lived in the river corridor his whole life and is on the river daily.....sorry but, I respect the hell out of that kind of hands on knowledge base.

As far as forage goes I'm sure Aaron was laughing inside like me....we see bass on that river chasing and eating giant schools of shad. Much bigger than most would think.

We both use baits bigger than most do knowing this.

I am not a student from Mizzou doing an internship who has never seen the river before....just dude who loves the river and it's native fish and is out on the river making observations as much as possible.

I agree though some investigations would be nice to set up a base for any needed regulations.

Jim you asked on another thread why some have an indifference to the MDC and mine stems from the tagging bounty....I mean study they did a few years back. The answers to questions posed to them at their meetings showed a massive amount of ignorance on their part. That being said being said I think the MDC is one of the better state agencies in the country and value what they do immensely. I know they are hamstrung with funding and personnel to do what they would probably really want to especially when it comes to enforcement of game codes.....I am realistic.....it is what it is.

If they wouldn't have said a few things to me and my friends at Powder Valley in regards to our questions pertaining to river bass I wouldn't be as skeptical of their motives and common knowledge of the river corridor and it' fish.....they are a great agency for the most part though IMO