tjm

Thanks, I knew about the USCG Captain license and that really is not about being a guide at all, if I recall it correctly, it is about operating a boat for hire, particularly with passengers. Basically safe boat operation. The claim of all waters under federal jurisdiction pretty much covers all rivers and creeks that run into rivers. That takes Navigability out of the equation as well. Neither the White nor the Osage in Mo. are Navigable, but both fall under USACE control. I think that if the water runs into a USACE controlled river or lake USACE claims jurisdiction over it, thus USCG has jurisdiction over the boating on it. Nothing to do with what state either, that's all Federal stuff. Some one could be a fine Captain and still be a lousy guide, whether for fish or elk, or to a good restaurant, so even having that license doesn't insure a good experience, but it does mean a better chance of the insurance being valid. It's noted in that older thread that operating a motorized boat for hire without the Captain license is a Federal felony, something any guide using a boat should take seriously.

I caught quite a few eels in RI, the mother in law liked to eat them, but that is about twice as big as any I killed. Worms and wet trout flies any time of day, black marabou streamer (leech?) probably took the most. My biggest was taken in the salt on a sand worm.

True of most fish. If a fish has any flavor beyond the coating, or sauce, "it tastes too fishy".

Now 22 hours old and got 50 supporters in the first 5 hours. Not that I much care, but this is what happens when you set aside an area as "special", that specialness requires one more regulation after another to keep making it more special. If this area was not already made 'special' by "trophy" status (if it was considered as put and take stocked water) there would be no basis for making it more "special". Trophy? nonnative, genetically manipulated, pen raised fish, should make a wonderful trophy, especially if a plastic "replica" is the "mount".

So not really pertinent to guiding? would only apply on Corps controlled water?

I think that only applies to humans. Dogs have higher standing than humans in modern society. There needs to changes in laws that reduce animals to animal status. Killing of another's dog or cat or cow should be "property destruction" and carry a penalty equal to the intrinsic monetary value of the property. A felony conviction is a lot more than just a time out in a jail, it will change your entire future, the "felon" title is forever and affects many aspects of life, the daughters will never get their lives back either with no dad. I've never used pepper spray ( bear spray?), but for self defense that won't destroy yourself, it might be just the thing. "What is the SSS method? '' well years ago my neighbor bought a backhoe for his tractor and now there are no pit bulls, mastifs or terriers in the area.

Thank you for that. It'd be wonderful if that attitude was universal. No one is "fully vaccinated" until the vaccines are nearing 100% prevention. A vaccine that just reduces the symptoms is in reality worse than no vaccine. Any one of us might be a carrier.

Bill, can you link to this or give name of permit and issuing agency? In my ignorance I didn't know the Feds had control over guides.

I think it's still illegal to shoot a dog in Mo. regardless of reason, the "Old Drum" thing. Probably safer to shoot the owner.

Do those work if you go into the drink unconscious? The wake resulting in losing balance strikes me as possibly a way to become injured.

Yep, social media was the local breakfast joint and the feed store porch. One land owner back then told me a couple of outfitters had offered him a fee to keep others out. Exclusive use lease his access but never use it arrangement. By the time kayaks and cell phones became common 80-90% of previous park and walk access were gone and with 25 years passed, 80-90% of the public no longer remembers them. The folks that used them have mostly passed.

I was told the canoe rentals paid off the commissioners to close some accesses, to insure they had access control and got the fees. A fellow can hear all sorts of stories. The water company backhoe closed some ROW accesses too, at the request of nearby landowners. I never heard why MDOT removed the pullouts/parking spots, but they are gone. (those commissioners are all dead now too, I think and maybe the outfiters too, I know some are)

Not in the counties I fish.

Al, are you talking about a constitutional amendment? I don't think case law gets changed easily. Do you pay taxes on the underwater land in Mt?

In the Elk drainage several places. I haven't been down where you're thinking in several years.

I've had written permission on several parcels in the past, and for any hunting, trapping or pond fishing would not go without it. It takes away my liability as well as the landowner's. A few things wrong with that, first off- MDC can't make any laws, that is the legislatures job; secondly the land under the streams is deeded to the landowner going back to the first owner after statehood and is a significant source of tax revenue to the state and all the counties, to provide the access you mention would require the state to buy back all those lands and lose all those taxes, likely also have to be run through the SCOTUS since federal laws dictated the original land distribution and stream designation. The current situation requiring access/use of each stream to be decided in court is based on an old US Court decision. Thirdly stream use in Mo. is based on Case Law, almost every stream big enough to interest fishermen could be opened to public access as a thoroughfare if only someone would get arrested and then take the case before the State courts, this is pretty clear from past judgements. Fourthly, if the city or state declared your back yard open to the public for BBQ and concerts, wouldn't you object, possibly sue the the city or state? Your proposal deprives thousands of landowners of their rights as landowners in the same way that opening your back yard to public use would. bet it would cost the State a few $billion when a class action got through the Federal Court system. I like the idea of the state (regardless of agency) buying access to all the streams, but legally, that only gives us permission to use the part of the stream they own, unless the stream has been adjudicated a public thoroughfare by a court or the state has acquired easement/landowner agreement, like they used to have on Capp's Creek. I do recall when every bridge had parking and access and every place a state road came next to a creek there were lay-bys big enough for about three cars, all those were taken out in the '90s, I'm not sure why. At the time I assumed the state had liability issues. Those places now are posted heavily with "No Parking" signs and "Keep Out State Property" signs. What I question but have never really researched is the legality of the County Sheriff declaring a "No Parking" zone near county road crossings of streams with no action by the County Commission, that seems to let the Sheriff make laws rather than be an enforcer. A few times every month I see cars towed away from a nearby bridge area.

I've never seen a snake there either, but it wasn't a let down, these days I'm always surprised to see any snake. I've noticed fewer fewer snakes everywhere over the last 15 years or so. Rarely see a road kill snake and 30 years ago I'd see a dozen or two on any trip of 10-30 miles. I have speculated that armadillos are part of the snake decline, when I mentioned that observation to a state herp, she suggested that it wasn't the 'dillos eating baby snakes but that they compete for prey.

Does he? Maybe he is the one in control that you should call?

If it is strictly Park, campground related I agree. What I've been told is the hatchery and the fish/stream management is MDC, the Park management is said to a cooperative effort between the two agencies. Which is likely why there are complaints, each agency blames the other. Complaints I read seem to revolve around the hatchery and fish. But Sara used to run DNR too, so she may be entirely to blame if the down hill trend is several years in the making?

Sara Parker Pauley (former head of DNR) is the Director of MDC, she seems to think politically. No science needed. You'll have to find her contact info. You could be more effective wring to the Governor, asking for a replacement. Those open meetings never change what is already decided as the course of action, they are simply an opiate to the public.

Those western rivers run miles and miles through deserts with zero shade and little or no cold water inputs, most of the springs I saw when growing up in Idaho and Oregon were warm to hot, the snow/glacier melt is the only source of cool. The typical Ozark stream is cool/cold spring fed and goes underground at half the gravel bars that cools it again, so no comparison really. What might compare closer would be the east coast streams I used to fish (and kept temperature records on) they often start in swamps that are in essence springs are about the size of Crane Creek or Roaring River and end in 5-20 miles, in those streams with open over head area for a half mile or more the water temperatures would rapidly approach air temps, with water being ~72-74 and air being ~80 (near the source ~64); but in the streams that had good shade the temps stayed near the source level through out most of the stream and occasionally would drop lower around midstream springs. The four or five years I monitored stream temps, let me get good enough feel for the water that I'd stick my hand into a section and guess within a degree of what the thermometer would read. My observations indicate that the trout left any area that became too warm, if there was anyplace upstream to go. The native brookies never left the shade/springs and consequently the fisheries folks never knew they were there. My thoughts run like this, concerning heat and fish distress, if most of the fish are active, the water is a good temperature. If most of the fish are huddled in the shade or under the falls sucking up O2 rich water and the water feels lukewarm, there is a danger to the fish. Trout were never very active in water where I found temperatures of 70+. Although in one stream where brown trout were just beginning to naturalize they did seem to adapt to warmer temps, with the fingerlings being active in mid 70s water where there was some shade. On RR, it's supposed to be 57F at the spring, I've never checked the temperatures (I will next time over there) but I've wet waded the middle section C&R enough times that I'll guess it ~65 in the warmest shallows with some much cooler spots. It gets much warmer in the upper part of zone 3. I think there are small springs feeding that stream through it's length, but I don't know that. Wide shallow runs with little shade are what heats up a stream. Those western rivers that get shut down are artificial fisheries to begin with, the fish didn't evolve to exist there.

I live in one of those white counties and have seen five timbers and three cottonmouths over the years. I wonder how they think snakes got across the white counties to get to the isolated or more northern shaded counties. That only shows where an MDC bio or herp actually saw the snake.

have you ever checked the stream temperatures in summer? I don't think air temps have a great effect on fish survival and the only time I was there in July the water felt plenty cold. I had assumed it was spring fed and as such would have approximately the same temps year round? The part of the stream I saw was pretty well shaded and had bank under cuts that should keep the water cool.

Feeder creeks with fairly consistent flows make a lot more sense to me than the lake itself. I just don't know enough about that area to know there are such creeks. A couple months ago I was catching dozens of parr marked rainbow out of a White Ribbon stream every time I went. I'm sure that last winter must have had ideal conditions, whatever that is. And yes the trout will go up to the step-across sections of a stream if there is forage and good water temperatures. I've caught them in water 3' wide and 1' deep in a couple of states. That then would make the fish above "wild spawned" but not "lake spawned".

I don't think of trout spawning in rivers either, unless it has stretches of shallow riffles. And I thought they kept that water unstable by generating? I can see them building redds I just have belief trouble with them being successful. But, I know very little about that. Every place I've fished for trout from Idaho to Pa. to the all the New England states to Mo&Ar there have been stocking programs. I read somewhere that rainbows were "the artificial fish" because of the long history of domestication.