A Question About The Black Bass Season

[Justin Spencer]

I kinda liken it to the striped shiners I always catch on the North Fork- they're fun,

Good point, the other day I had been catching a bunch of YOY rainbows and hooked a "nice" shiner, when I hooked it I told Amy "this is a better fish", is there a line class record for striped shiner yet?

[Outside Bend]

Good point, the other day I had been catching a bunch of YOY rainbows and hooked a "nice" shiner, when I hooked it I told Amy "this is a better fish", is there a line class record for striped shiner yet?

I wish there were- I've caught some real brusiers down there!

[exiledguide]

Am I the only one who enjoys catching spots. I understand they compete with smallmouth for space and food and grow slower than largemouth, but to me they have always fought more like a smallmouth than a bucketmouth. Much like the introduced trout to me it is just another sportfish I enjoy catching. I would be fine with eliminating them, but we know that is virtually impossible so why not enjoy catching them. Maybe i don't understand the negative impact they have on streams, I'd enjoy hearing some discussion for or against them.

When I lived in Benton, AR and fished the Saline River that was my take home and eat fish and actualy in some areas the spots seemed to outgrow the smallmoth. Down on the Ouachita River from Remel Dam down to Malvern the Smallmouth were much bigger and seemed to be more numerous. Also in the Ouchita Goggle Eye were a lot bigger. Walleye seemed about the same and the Saline had no Rainbow trout in it. But I got to agree if the MDC decides these fish are not wanted shouln't they lift all restrictions as to size and number.

[duckydoty]

Fear of not being able to ID the fish cant be the reason why the MDC does not keep the season open for them because the MDC is already assuming you can ID them by upping the limit on the spots to 12 in aggregate and only 6 LM. If you can ID them well enough to keep 12 spots in certain areas and only 6 LM, then you can ID them well enough to keep them during the spawn, without keeping LM or SM.

[Gavin]

I wouldnt mind a kill them all no limit spotted bass regulations were needed...But is it really going to do anything?

I try to do my part on the Meramec drainage, but I dont fish for river bass in the winter, and I hardly ever catch twelve spotted bass on a single trip...That might be different if I chose to fish the stretches were spotted bass are more prevalent.

[Al Agnew]

There is nothing wrong with spots as game fish, and I like catching them on the streams where they are native. In most of those streams they have evolved along with the smallmouth and largemouth, and each species co-exists well with the others. But in the northern Ozark streams, the smallmouth evolved without spotted bass. And the real kicker is that the streams where the spotted bass have done their worst are those that were once the VERY BEST streams in Missouri for big smallmouth. Big River, the lower Meramec, the Bourbeuse, and the lower Gasconade for that matter, probably produced more 20 inch plus smallmouth than any other stream stretches in the state until the spotted bass invaded them. And for whatever reason, the spotted bass in these streams compete so directly (and so successfully) with smallmouth that it seems like for every spotted bass, there is one less smallmouth. So these streams are absolutely nothing like they were before spotted bass, and that's why I consider the spots a disaster on these streams.

[Tim Smith]

There is nothing wrong with spots as game fish, and I like catching them on the streams where they are native. In most of those streams they have evolved along with the smallmouth and largemouth, and each species co-exists well with the others. But in the northern Ozark streams, the smallmouth evolved without spotted bass. And the real kicker is that the streams where the spotted bass have done their worst are those that were once the VERY BEST streams in Missouri for big smallmouth. Big River, the lower Meramec, the Bourbeuse, and the lower Gasconade for that matter, probably produced more 20 inch plus smallmouth than any other stream stretches in the state until the spotted bass invaded them. And for whatever reason, the spotted bass in these streams compete so directly (and so successfully) with smallmouth that it seems like for every spotted bass, there is one less smallmouth. So these streams are absolutely nothing like they were before spotted bass, and that's why I consider the spots a disaster on these streams.

There is speculation (but I haven't seen a conclusive experiment) that spots impact smallmouth through hybridization.

The comments about the quality of spots as a game fish are "spot" on, and yes they deserve good management where they are NATIVE, not where they are invasive (...and just wait until their range pushes a bit further north they establish in the Kankakee in Illinois; that's Illinois' best smallmouth stream and the potential for economic impacts will be significant).

There is a growing number of groups who are trying to redirect angler harvest onto nuisance species. "Carpbusters", "Lionfish Hunters" and others. Whether or not those efforts can actually succeed is an open question. They might work to lessen impacts or they might just change the size structure of the impacted population.

Whether or not anglers are good at IDing fish is statistically "no". Here on a fishing forum, most of us are deeply into the sport and know our way around the species we catch, but most people just dabbling at it are incompetant due to inexperience and lack of interest. I'll never forget the guy swaggering down the dock on Lake Yellowstone with a 20+ inch Yellowstone cutthroat (harvested completely illegally during a time cutthroat populations there were in critical danger) saying he had caught a lake trout. Walked right up to the concession building with it...to brag???

An angler who pays attention can ID spots without being a genius. In tournaments, they usually use one key characteristic, like the tongue tooth patch. If they did go this way, misidentified species (anything without the patch, for instance) in the creel would have to be prosectued to keep everyone honest (and there would have to be enough enforcement to make getting caught a possibility). The people who made honest mistakes would end up pretty mad. It would be a hassle for the COs to enforce and it's not sure to have an effect although if they had the patience to try, it would probably be worth an experimental run.

[Smalliebigs]

There is nothing wrong with spots as game fish, and I like catching them on the streams where they are native. In most of those streams they have evolved along with the smallmouth and largemouth, and each species co-exists well with the others. But in the northern Ozark streams, the smallmouth evolved without spotted bass. And the real kicker is that the streams where the spotted bass have done their worst are those that were once the VERY BEST streams in Missouri for big smallmouth. Big River, the lower Meramec, the Bourbeuse, and the lower Gasconade for that matter, probably produced more 20 inch plus smallmouth than any other stream stretches in the state until the spotted bass invaded them. And for whatever reason, the spotted bass in these streams compete so directly (and so successfully) with smallmouth that it seems like for every spotted bass, there is one less smallmouth. So these streams are absolutely nothing like they were before spotted bass, and that's why I consider the spots a disaster on these streams.

Al, I agree with you so much on this one it makes want to cry. I'm not that old but, I remember fishing with my dad and grandpa on the lower Big and Meramec and really hammering some trophy Smallies back in the late 70's and early 80's. You can still find them in those areas but you really have to work your tail off.The one that crushes me is the Big River, we use to have days on the Big that kids today would not believe if you told them.I remember guys catching several 20 inch Smallies from Castlewood Park to the Big on the Meramec Times Beach @ Eureka use to offer great bank fishing for bass, or even Shady Beach out of St.Clair. Oh well, that was then and now we have Asian Carp and little punk Spots everywhere.

[Al Agnew]

Yeah, like I said, it seems like on these streams there is room for X number of "non-largemouth" bass, and where it used to be entirely smallmouth, it's now mostly spotted bass. So the smallmouth population has declined anywhere from 60 to 95%, replaced by spots. Since only a small percentage of the smallmouth population will be big fish, when the population drops 60-95%, the number of big smallies drops by about the same percentage. I grew up on upper Big River, and mostly fished it down to the Pine Ford bridge, seldom below. The stretch that became one of the first special management areas, from Mammoth Bridge to Browns Ford, and the stretch below from Browns Ford to Pine Ford, was phenomenal for big smallmouth. One of my two biggest ever came from that stretch. Making it a special management area actually helped the situation somewhat--at least it seemed like the smallies held their own a little better between Mammoth and Browns than they did below. But I'd say the smallmouth population in that stretch is maybe 40% of what it was before spots. Below Morse Mill, smallmouth are now almost non-existent except for a few small areas of fast water below the mill dams and one stretch of rocky shallows.

And what really hurts as well is that my all time favorite stretch of Big River, from St. Francois Park to Blackwell, is now more than 50% spotted bass. It has been somewhat stable for a few years, after it only taking about three or four years for the spotted bass in it to go from zero to outnumbering smallies.

Tim, hybridization is part of the problem, but I don't think it's a huge part. If it were, you'd catch a lot more obvious hybrids. In the stretches where spotted bass are in the process of taking over or have taken over, I'll catch about two hybrids for every 50 or so bass of both species that I catch. I don't think it's all competition for food and habitat among adult fish, either. It almost seems like something is cropping off the young of the year smallies and leaving the young of the year spots. It's a bit of a mystery, but the results are obvious. On the stretch of Big River between Desloge and St. Francois Park, where I've done a lot of fishing in the last decade during which spotted bass first appeared and have now reached about equal numbers with smallmouth, my catch rate of both species combined has remained at about 50 fish per day on average. I'm still averaging 50 fish per day, it's just that half of them are now spotted bass--and since the spots average smaller than the smallies, my average size of both species combined has dropped considerably. And if one's goal is to catch a few big fish, keep in mind that I've NEVER caught a 20 inch spotted bass from any Ozark stream, and in fact the largest I've ever caught was about 18 inches, and only one or two of that size. Spots over 15 inches are quite rare. So the trade-off is, smallmouth with 15-16 inchers just about EVERY trip, 18 inchers fairly regularly, and a decent chance at a 20 incher, is now replaced by half or fewer the number of 15 inch plus smallies along with seldom catching a spot that size.

[Justin Spencer]

Maybe the spots are more aggresive and get the best spawning areas, leaving the smallmouth in more vulnerable areas where the spawn fails or young are quickly picked off as they hatch.