Trespass

[eric1978]

Well thos needs are not god given rights codified in the very infancy of our free country. Many good Americans have fought and died for these rights that so many seem ready to just give away for a sence of safety.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

"God given" right? LOL Okay. Yeah I heard God was a helluva marksman. Like Wrench said, it's not a question of your rights...I haven't heard anyone argue that. It's a question of whether or not those rights are sensible or totally idiotic.

http://youtu.be/taih2zUOmIM

[Al Agnew]

I can see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, I agree that most CC permit holders probably are not trained well enough nor mentally ready to effectively defend themselves or others when push comes to shove. You never know how you'll react until it happens, but it takes a lot of training to be reasonably confident that you'll be able to handle most dangerous situations.

On the other hand, I do believe that people have the right to defend themselves and their loved ones, which entails the right to own and carry firearms. I think that's the real value of the Second Amendment, not some nebulous "right" to fight against a government turned despotic that is a romantic but hopeless ideal in today's world.

Everything else seems to be pretty much of a wash at this point. Yes, there are quite a few people carrying concealed. But you don't hear much about a CC permit holder either stopping a crime or doing something really stupid. Apparently, neither happens very often. And there apparently aren't enough people with CC permits to really make the bad guys think that maybe the person they want to rob or kill might be carrying a weapon. And, if it's concealed, it doesn't do much to defuse bad situations until you show it, which is often too late.

But basically, I don't worry much about being victimized by a crime, nor do I worry much about being victimized by some gun-totin' bubba with a CC permit. If I had to live or work in a high crime area, I'm sure I'd have a different perspective, and I would have no problem in that case with getting my own CC permit.

[Mitch f]

The most frightening people I've ever met was a survivalist group who flew the flag, thumped the Bible and carried guns. They thought they had a God-given right to overthrow the government and execute every black and Jew in existence--and carrying guns gave them the emotional power to follow these pursuits. This is, admittedly, a lunitic finge element, but I see these and any trigger-happy Rambo wantabe as a bigger threat to my gun rights than the anti-gun element.

Agreed! those loons sure don't help their cause!

[eric1978]

I can see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, I agree that most CC permit holders probably are not trained well enough nor mentally ready to effectively defend themselves or others when push comes to shove. You never know how you'll react until it happens, but it takes a lot of training to be reasonably confident that you'll be able to handle most dangerous situations.

On the other hand, I do believe that people have the right to defend themselves and their loved ones, which entails the right to own and carry firearms. I think that's the real value of the Second Amendment, not some nebulous "right" to fight against a government turned despotic that is a romantic but hopeless ideal in today's world.

Everything else seems to be pretty much of a wash at this point. Yes, there are quite a few people carrying concealed. But you don't hear much about a CC permit holder either stopping a crime or doing something really stupid. Apparently, neither happens very often. And there apparently aren't enough people with CC permits to really make the bad guys think that maybe the person they want to rob or kill might be carrying a weapon. And, if it's concealed, it doesn't do much to defuse bad situations until you show it, which is often too late.

But basically, I don't worry much about being victimized by a crime, nor do I worry much about being victimized by some gun-totin' bubba with a CC permit. If I had to live or work in a high crime area, I'm sure I'd have a different perspective, and I would have no problem in that case with getting my own CC permit.

Always reasonable, Al. That's my position in a nutshell as well.

[fishinwrench]

Yep. I feel plenty confident about my shooting ability's when at the range or out hunting, but I wouldn't trust my "snap shots while under surprise attack" to save anyones life.

Earlier when I said I'd rather take my chances what I should have said, and what I meant to imply was that I'd rathe take my chances than to go about my everyday life in a "unrelaxed ready to defend at any second" type of mindset. And that is what it would take for me to be "prepared" yet safe at the same time.

[Haris122]

Wow, you guys are still at it. Impressive, most impressive. Out of curiosity, what all is taught in the CCW class. Is it anything along the lines of Hunter Education in regards to safe handling of firearms, and is there a "practical" type exam, where you have to repeat the practical until you can get most of your shots within a bullseye, at like 7 yards or what?

[fishinwrench]

Is this the wrong thread to talk about my homeboy down the road who did 2 tours in Afhanistan and had no clue how to sight in, and install a sling on his newly aquired 7mm deer rifle?

I've had no military experience whatsoever, but I'm curious....do they just hand those boys a weapon and put them on a plane? Even Forrest Gump learned to field strip his rifle.

[jdmidwest]

The CCW course is designed by the NRA. It teaches the laws regarding concealed carry, where you can and can't carry, It teaches the legal part of what self defense is. It has a basic course on design and cleaning of handguns. The practical part is 150 + rounds at a range with both a revolver and a semi-auto handgun. It has sections on firearm safety. It has a portion on lead poisoning in the air and on your hands when shooting. There is no written test.

Most instructors stress the fact that using a firearm for self defense is the last resort. If you use it, you will probably end a human life which would be the most important decision you will make in your lifetime. They teach how to avoid the use of the firearm, how to try and retreat and do so tactifully to minimize the threat. Some will teach a few moves for close encounters. It is the last resort. You are not law enforcement, you are not to jump in and try to do their job. Your only responsibility is for yourself or your family.

Most instructors offer advanced courses and many continue past the basic qualification.

[Haris122]

The practical part is 150 + rounds at a range with both a revolver and a semi-auto handgun.

So the practical is to get them accustomed to shooting, not specifically to keep your bullets within a circle of such size, at such distance, before being able to pass, or do they have to have certain results before they can keep going on to the final sections of the CCW. Also is that 150+ rounds a piece, or total for both types of guns.

[FlyFishinFool]

That sounds a bit far fetched, where do you come up with these stats? Have been involved off and on in church my whole life and the only fight that ever broke out was when our youth group went into a basketball game down in the city and a couple of the players got punched.

Hey Mitch, perhaps this is simply a case where your experience is significantly less than all-knowing?? Hmmm?

Just read the article about one of my family member's church (fortunately they had attended the earlier service), located 15 miles east of St. Louis in the rolling farmland of Illinois;

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-08/justice/church.shooting_1_trent-pastor-gunman?_s=PM:CRIME