Smallmouth Issues/msa Meeting

[ColdWaterFshr]

Enforcement is the key.

Regulation changes don't amount to a hill of beans until there is adequate enforcement (and judges) to back it up. Those that don't pay attention to the existing regs are not just a problem with smallmouth, but also the much more "precious" and higher-angler valued and almighty missouri trout. The local meat-hunters and chronic catch and keepers don't really differentiate, and they sure don't care to read whatever the latest rules are. I'm convinced that THEY impact however many big fish are around in a given stretch of water 100 times more than any 1-fish 18" or 4-fish 15 inch, or slot idea you might throw out. Splitting hairs.

The point I'm making -- if MDC can't effectively enforce 100 miles or so of trout water, how is any reg change going to adequately be enforced over 3-4,000 miles of Missouri smallmouth water? Its not.

If smallmouth bass were to be made catch and release only effective tomorrow, on all bodies of water, I don't think we'd see any difference in 10 years whatsover unless enforcement were to be seriously stepped up right along with it.

[ColdWaterFshr]

Al - I hear what you are saying, but I'd put habitat as a distant 2nd to the stringer fishermen. Floods constantly change habitat and create more logs in the water, change the river in many ways. Okay, I'll grant you land-use abuse/gravel-mining, riparian corridor abuse, etc.

[Al Agnew]

Enforcement is the key.

Regulation changes don't amount to a hill of beans until there is adequate enforcement (and judges) to back it up. Those that don't pay attention to the existing regs are not just a problem with smallmouth, but also the much more "precious" and higher-angler valued and almighty missouri trout. The local meat-hunters and chronic catch and keepers don't really differentiate, and they sure don't care to read whatever the latest rules are. I'm convinced that THEY impact however many big fish are around in a given stretch of water 100 times more than any 1-fish 18" or 4-fish 15 inch, or slot idea you might throw out. Splitting hairs.

The point I'm making -- if MDC can't effectively enforce 100 miles or so of trout water, how is any reg change going to adequately be enforced over 3-4,000 miles of Missouri smallmouth water? Its not.

If smallmouth bass were to be made catch and release only effective tomorrow, on all bodies of water, I don't think we'd see any difference in 10 years whatsover unless enforcement were to be seriously stepped up right along with it.

Better enforcement would certainly be a good thing, and I used to believe exactly as you do. But as I mentioned but didn't go into in the original post, there is another way of looking at it.

We can agree that enforcement isn't perfect as it is, with current regs. There are always people who are going to ignore the rules, and they are ignoring them now. Those same people will continue to ignore them if they are changed. But the question is, will MORE people ignore them if they are changed? I suspect not many. Most anglers will abide by the rules either because they are ethical to begin with (and yes, there ARE plenty of stringer anglers that are ethical) or because they fear being caught. So I think you can figure that the percentage of rule breakers will stay about the same. Therefore, a reg change should have an effect, even though not everybody is following it, because most will follow it just as they are following current regs. Back when the 12 inch length limit statewide was first instituted, it resulted in a great improvement in the fishing, but there were still rule breakers back then. The same should happen now.

[BackCastingGolfer]

I only keep bluegill and goggleeye...no bass for this guy.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Well, it has been my experience that the biggest key to good versus mediocre fishing is pressure. I fish several smallish streams with what could only be considered poor habitat. Long stretches of shallow water. Lots of graveled in pools. But they get little fishing pressure (often partly because they ARE poor habitat). And, they are excellent fishing in the warm weather months, with some big fish in them.

Do you believe people may skip smaller streams is because they don't think they hold quality fish and don't appear to have any real fishable water???? I was bridge hopping one time with a friend of mine and we stopped at one place and was fishing at bridge. A few minutes later, the landowner showed up and asked what we were doing. We had a very pleasant conversation with him and he stated he had no idea there were any fish in there. He watched for as we spoke and reeled in couple. He bid us good day and drove off.

You spot on about pressure on smaller creeks. And that is just fine with me. I just wish ours had brownies like yours over there!! That would really be sweet!! Smalliebigs has sent me some pics of brownies that he has caught out of those smaller creeks and they just make me even more jealous!!!

[Feathers and Fins]

I fish a little creek often that is too small to be floated at any time. For the first couple of years, I was amazed how many bass, and good bass, lived in this little water. Never saw another fisherman on it, until last year. It was a guy who moved from St. Louis to retire. He was a nice guy, spin fisherman, but I noticed he had one of those wire stringers clanging from his vest, so during a conversation I asked if he had noticed how wormy the bass were in this creek. (Most locals don't like smallmouth because they are wormy.) I ran into him a couple more times last year, so he was spending quite a bit of time on this creek.

By the end of last year, at least any where near the access where I kept running into this guy, this creek seemed almost devoid of fish. One fish hog can ruin a creek in a single season, and the saddest part is, I don't think it even computes with them that they are the reason the fishing went bad. I've heard them talk. They think it is some kind of natural cycle.

Fishing pressure is a very important factor, but instead of different rules for dozens of different waters, I'd like to see the state-wide limit raised a couple of inches. That's simpler and easier for everyone to remember.

Now where I agree catch and keep anglers can affect a creek, so long as a water is open to C&K then it is what it is. Raising the size limit wont change that. You will still have people who keep fish and then what raise the limit again or go to the MDCand request it be closed to C&K because you are not catching fish. Where is the line drawn.

C&R anglers drive me nuts, Ive ran into many that look at anyone keeping a fish as if they are sub-human. Its a resource for all to enjoy, If you want to release the fish thats great I release alot of fish to, If you want to keep some great as well I love to eat fish myself. But regulations need to be set so the RESOURCE remains viable. Not to make any one groups wishes before that of the resource.

Perhaps the old guy above liked to eat fish and kept a few. Then again a few kids you never saw or a few groups you never saw or even possibly otters might well have decided to take home some fish also.

[FishinCricket]

Now where I agree catch and keep anglers can affect a creek, so long as a water is open to C&K then it is what it is. Raising the size limit wont change that. You will still have people who keep fish and then what raise the limit again or go to the MDCand request it be closed to C&K because you are not catching fish. Where is the line drawn.

C&R anglers drive me nuts, Ive ran into many that look at anyone keeping a fish as if they are sub-human. Its a resource for all to enjoy, If you want to release the fish thats great I release alot of fish to, If you want to keep some great as well I love to eat fish myself. But regulations need to be set so the RESOURCE remains viable. Not to make any one groups wishes before that of the resource.

Perhaps the old guy above liked to eat fish and kept a few. Then again a few kids you never saw or a few groups you never saw or even possibly otters might well have decided to take home some fish also.

I know you can only speak from your own experiences, and it's obvious you've never spent any time on a heavily spring fed river I the winter.. I've lipped around 500 smallies in one spot over the 2 months of Sundays at Bennett..

I agree that using the resource should be acceptable, but not friggin RAPING the resource. I would legally be able to go once a day to a lil river not to far from me, there's a deep spring hole where all the smallies STACK UP.. I could take my limit each day and feed my family (and some locals do), but eventually that hole is gonna be packed with nothing but (less than)12 inch fish. You tell me that's coincidence.

And lowering the limit to 1 fish over 15 per day won't help (or something to that effect)? Hogwash...

[Mitch f]

I know you can only speak from your own experiences, and it's obvious you've never spent any time on a heavily spring fed river I the winter.. I've lipped around 500 smallies in one spot over the 2 months of Sundays at Bennett..

I agree that using the resource should be acceptable, but not friggin RAPING the resource. I would legally be able to go once a day to a lil river not to far from me, there's a deep spring hole where all the smallies STACK UP.. I could take my limit each day and feed my family (and some locals do), but eventually that hole is gonna be packed with nothing but (less than)12 inch fish. You tell me that's coincidence.

And lowering the limit to 1 fish over 15 per day won't help (or something to that effect)? Hogwash...

EXACTLY!

[Feathers and Fins]

Cricket, My point is so long as C&K is legal on a stream anywhere, it is possible that people will keep fish and that overfishing is highly likely. I have spent many days on small creeks and seen the affect of people keeping fish. However it is legal, I have also seen the otters do damage to a resource, the same as I have seen soil errosion and cattle influances on stream. They are fragile resources and without sound management which may have to include C&R only, then the resource is at the peril at any point from a host of influances.

Management of any resource is more than just an indivdual anglers or persons wishes, it is taking in to account all potential variables and comming up with a plan that benifits the resource before the wants of people. Florida for example saw a major decrease in the Snook fishery from harvest durring the summer spawn when they consentrate in inlets by the millions as well as in the winter when they go to the deep holes. They are easy pickings at these two times of year. Floridas responce was to make those times of year C&R only and the result was Snook population increase. Sometimes its as simple as protecting a species at the most vulnerable times. Good management of not just a species but of the resource taken as a whole is sound management.

[Smalliebigs]

I know you can only speak from your own experiences, and it's obvious you've never spent any time on a heavily spring fed river I the winter.. I've lipped around 500 smallies in one spot over the 2 months of Sundays at Bennett..

I agree that using the resource should be acceptable, but not friggin RAPING the resource. I would legally be able to go once a day to a lil river not to far from me, there's a deep spring hole where all the smallies STACK UP.. I could take my limit each day and feed my family (and some locals do), but eventually that hole is gonna be packed with nothing but (less than)12 inch fish. You tell me that's coincidence.

And lowering the limit to 1 fish over 15 per day won't help (or something to that effect)? Hogwash...

Bravo Cricket!!!! I'm right there with you........the problem is we will never know because the MDC is to afraid of imposing tough regs because as John said at the MSA meeting over and over like it was rehearsed to him, "we can't go back on an imposed regulation". Appararently in Missouri once you impose a reg you can't change it?????? Sounds weak to me.....sounds like your afraid of making a mistake, which in my world is what stiffles creativity. The MDC paranoid of meat hunters feelings????