Smallmouth Bass Management Update - Jan 16Th

[exiledguide]

I'm one of the few members in SW MO. I worked with Gary trying to get more members down here. I was the guy who put the samallmouth signs up with the metal T Post backed with cedar board at Delaware town,Shelvin Rock etc. I had to do that because I was told I would be subject to arrest if I put any sings on MDC property including the signpost already there and any trees on the property.It just amazes me at the attitude of the MDC and people who claim they want better smallmouth fishing defend this group of do nothing bueracrats. At some point the MDC needs to do something. They sure have no problem with improving trout fishing . Smalliebigs, I have no respect for the people that run the MDC I have a great deal of respect for the employees of the MDC except for the guy who told me I couldn't put up the signs.....cwc87, sorry if if the members actualy expected some honest answers......and Dan you are ceazy to trust the MDC leadership they have never been requied to do their job , why would they start now........I don't attend those meetings because of the distant but I would have liked to have been there last night.............. no I really wouldn't because

[Gavin]

The MDC folks did get beat up a bit last night..Think that most of the fireworks were the result of pent up frustration from passionate anglers who wanted a regulation change announcement instead of an update on smallmouth research as advertised. We got what was advertised but it wasnt what the folks in the room wanted to hear. Sorry to those MDC folks.

In hindsight, I'm thinking that the repetitive answers that I complained about were the results of repetitive questions from those in attendance. Same question asked ten different ways...mostly when and why not this type of stuff. I dont see them dragging their feet anymore...They never said when the tag survey was gonna end and I'm optimistic about the tag surveys outcome.

I've read some of the biological studies...Increased length limits will work if fishing mortality is a significant component of total mortality. I'm pretty sure that they have good estimates of annual mortality...but this one could produce a data set that quantifies annual fishing mortality for adult smallmouth bass. I'm gonna hold any further criticism until I see what happens after the tag study results are released in 2015.

[smallmouthjoe]

I'm curious if Jen and John presented any data in regard to the smallmouth bass management areas? It seems to me that if they had sampling sites within the management areas that the length frequency data gathered in these sites would be indicative of what we would see if there were increased length limits and reduced creel limits state wide.

[Al Agnew]

I wasn't there, but I think MDC really wants to do what's best for the resource. However, they are also pressured from multiple directions. Their job really IS to manage people as much as fish.

Their biggest problem, in my opinion, is that as I think Dan said, they don't know how good these streams can be. They don't have the baseline data. Their first study ever was on Courtois Creek back in the 1960s, if I'm not mistaken. At that time, Courtois Creek was pounded to death by local anglers with the catch and keep mentality of the times. A few other studies during the same time period ran up against the same situation. Yet they used that data for many years as the baseline for the kind of bass population an Ozark stream could support. They produced articles and papers and even a movie that pretty much said that the typical Ozark stream could produce numbers and size structure of smallmouth that they found on Courtois Creek. Even when they saw populations improve with an experimental catch and release regulation on Courtois Creek, they didn't see a huge amount of improvement (probably because the locals paid little attention to the catch and release regs, and the visiting anglers who did pay attention to them weren't keeping many fish anyway). They didn't study the middle Meramec, or middle Gasconade back then, where they would have seen populations with a size structure that had a lot more bigger fish.

And they've never seen what the population size structure of a relatively unexploited and especially an un-gigged stream could be like. The very streams that could produce the largest numbers of big smallmouth are the same ones that are gigged to death. They didn't study these streams before jetboats made gigging so much easier. Except for the experimental catch and release regulation on Courtois Creek back in the 1960s, which they found did enough good that it was the impetus for the 12 inch length limit, they've never seen what a well-enforced regulation that protected more big fish could do. Sure, there's the one fish 18 inch limit on one section of the Gasconade, and on the upper Jacks Fork. I don't really know what any of their studies have shown on the Jacks Fork, but in my experience that section improved drastically after the implementation of the reg, even though the locals drive into the river on ATVs and keep a lot of fish in the summer when it's too low for MDC agents or anybody else to float it and cover it well. I do know that, for whatever reason, their studies on the Gasconade have shown some improvement, but not a huge improvement...maybe because of illegal gigging, who knows?

Point is, they think that what we see now is okay, and the special regulations can improve things to some extent, but not to a great extent. And they REALLY don't know what would happen if a potentially great big smallmouth stretch would be protected from illegal gigging. They simply have no data on it. And they'll never get data on it unless they first try it out. And that, they are simply not going to do.

[joeD]

What would happen to our beloved streams if, tomorrow, the MDC declares that smallmouth bass cannot be kept on any stream in Missouri?

That's right. ALL smallmouth bass in streams must be released.

You know what would happen?

Nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

Our catch rates will remain the same. Of course, there will be anomalies, but, basically, nothing will change. There will always be a subset of the fishing population that have no scruples, and will always harvest fish,. Always. On every river, in every town. And we know them. But, we will do nothing. Our excuses are at once, myriad, and typical.

Again, and I mean this sincerely, the MDC is barking up the wrong tree. Smallmouth fishing sucks in Missouri because of the asshole local fishermen in each town by a smallie stream that catch and keep fish on a regular and continuing basis.

Period.

The regulations put forth by the MDC, and, yes, society, do not apply to them. They will do as they please.

[Terrierman]

What would happen to our beloved streams if, tomorrow, the MDC declares that smallmouth bass cannot be kept on any stream in Missouri?

That's right. ALL smallmouth bass in streams must be released.

You know what would happen?

Nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

Our catch rates will remain the same. Of course, there will be anomalies, but, basically, nothing will change. There will always be a subset of the fishing population that have no scruples, and will always harvest fish,. Always. On every river, in every town. And we know them. But, we will do nothing. Our excuses are at once, myriad, and typical.

Again, and I mean this sincerely, the MDC is barking up the wrong tree. Smallmouth fishing sucks in Missouri because of the asshole local fishermen in each town by a smallie stream that catch and keep fish on a regular and continuing basis.

Period.

The regulations put forth by the MDC, and, yes, society, do not apply to them. They will do as they please.

That's one reason why I wish smallmouth bass tasted like crap.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Their biggest problem, in my opinion, is that as I think Dan said, they don't know how good these streams can be.

I think they do. They have had SBBSMA's in place for multiple generations of smallmouth and yet the numbers have not increased to "trophy" "world class" status.

You have said it yourself and I have too, the Ozarks may just not be cabable of producing large numbers of 18+ inch smallmouth.

[hank franklin]

I have followed this issue from afar for the 20 or so years I've been serious smallmouth bassin.

Kudos to the Smallmouth Alliance for their continued focus on this. Without them I'm not sure if MDC would be paying much attention at all.

It is terribly frustrating to me as a smallmouth angler that MDC has made so little progress. Yes we have seen some management areas introduced but very little if nothing since.

My perception as a distanced observer is that there's a political calculation in all this. There's an urban / rural split in Missouri politics, and I believe MDC sees the 12 inch 6 creel reg as the "rural" position. The urban/suburban smallmouthers are all catch and keep environmentalist liberal wackos. So MDC for political reasons is not going to side with the urban / suburbans.

I think Bob Todd's op-ed piece in River Hills Traveler a couple years back is a perfect example of this. Bob basically played the "dont tread on me" rural card. The MDC I think is not treading on him for political reasons, not science.

Excellent point on angler point restrictions. I think 4-pt rule is ludicrous actually. Why did MDC act so decisively? Because the big buck constituency wanted it, and who's going to argue with big bucks? No urban rural split here.

My two cents. Once again, kudos to Smallmouth Alliance for all their hard work.

[Al Agnew]

Ah Chief, we've hashed this all out before. I somewhat agree with you that they know what a stream looks like after a few years of the 1 fish, 15 inch limit, UNDER CURRENT ENFORCEMENT. Would better enforcement make a bigger difference? Maybe, maybe not. But they don't have a clue what the streams with the most potential to grow big smallmouth would look like without gigging. And they don't have any data on what those same streams were like before the advent of jetboats, which increased EFFECTIVE fishing pressure exponentially and made gigging a whole lot more effective at the same time. The period from about 1975 to 1985 was probably the time of the best size structure and number of big fish on streams like the middle Meramec, middle Gasconade, and other larger streams, and they didn't study those streams back then.

JoeD is somewhat right that there is a subset of local people that ignore the regulations no matter what they are. But I'm old enough to remember those same people complaining bitterly when they instituted the 6 fish, 12 inch limit, so I'm pretty sure they didn't pay much attention to it. Yet enough people DID follow it that fishing REALLY improved after a few years of that limit. You'll always have those who, either through ignorance or through a lawless attitude, will ignore regulations, but the majority of anglers will follow them, and if they are well-designed, fishing should improve.

And there is another reason for protective regulations...they make the statement that the fish being protected is WORTH protecting. This is something that may take a long time to make a difference, but maybe eventually enough people are convinced by the regulations that the fish are valuable and in need of better protection and it will change attitudes.

[Gavin]

Enforcement....you cant control the kill everything no limit crowd so why bother to discuss it? I've been trying to think of this in different ways...Matt Wier had a good point at the meeting...Would you rather have a bunch of little fillets, or fewer bigger ones...Decided to look at it from a meat yield perspective, assuming 50% waste...

12" fish...about 1.08lbs pound,,,round to a 1/2lbs in fillets...x 6=3lbs of usable meat..

15" fish...about 2.10 pounds...figure 1lb in fillets x 3=3lbs of usable meat..

Why not 3 over 15?...The meat yield is about the same..The meat eaters will have fewer fish to clean for the same amount of meat, and we might get some bigger fish. Seems like a win win to me.

.The conversion chart I used..

http://www.in-fisherman.com/2011/10/22/bass-length-to-weight-conversion-chart/