Gloom And Doom Hits Home.

[Smalliebigs]

ed that the size of some of these institutions becomes so large that it does become difficult for us to prosecute them when we are hit with indications that if you do prosecute…it will have a negative impact on the national economy” – Eric Holder, Attorney General, United States of America, 3/6/2013

Sooo true......Holder has said all I need to know about the fallacy of our federal goverment....they our a joke

Sooo true.....our Federal Goverment is a joke and Holder is a puppet for that rediculous outfit

[fishinwrench]

I used to think that too, but I kept getting reminded by guys that are smarter than me that the reason it seemed that way to me was because I am just ignorant of the way things work up there.

[jdmidwest]

Another good point came up today on a talk show with Cain, the "end of the year money dump" by government agencies. A military contractor pointed out that most agencies of the government get in a rush to spend any surplus money laying around in their accounts at the end of a fiscal year so they can qualify for more in the next years budget. They can't just bank the surplus, if any, and carry it over. If they did, the pencil pushers would not allot them any extra the next year.

I have seen it locally, a certain city has a new windfall from the Casino. They have been spending money like crazy on frivilous crap like flower gardens, park improvements, fancy street lights, and other stuff that was not really necessary in my mind. Why can't they just bank it for a rainy day? Or why don't they lower their absurb city sales tax rate and generate more growth for business? The sales tax in that town is approaching 10 percent.

[Flyflinger]

Here's another one (if you don't know who Karl Rove is...there is no reason to read on....it's to late for you:

"We’re an empire now and when we act we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality judiciously, as you will, we’ll act again, creating other new realities which you can study too. And that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors and you, ALL of you, will be just left to study what we do.”
----- Karl Rove speaking to a small group of reporters at a cocktail party in 2004...... printed in the Washington Post.

[Flyflinger]

I used to think that too, but I kept getting reminded by guys that are smarter than me that the reason it seemed that way to me was because I am just ignorant of the way things work up there.

Please elaborate Wrench....is this what you believe or are you being sarcastic?

[hoglaw]

Solution: Freedom.

Do you have a mouse in your pocket or something? I have taxes extracted from me at the barrel of a gun. I don't "pay" anything....to "pay" would imply a voluntary exchange. The only reason the collective gets anything from me is because they would kill/imprison me if I withhold my capital.

I haven't read the whole thread so I'm sure someone pointed this out, but your extremist logic is premised upon an entirely false assumption - that you have taxes extracted from you at the barrell of a gun. The first thought that comes to mind is move. But if you want to live in this wonderful land of opportunity, you can easily get by without paying taxes. First, stop earning an income. If you don't earn an income, you don't pay income taxes. Easy. There are lots of folks that do it. There's a whole commune just outside of West Fork that does it. That's really the easiest part. Since you don't earn an income, you're unlikely to leave behind the $5 mil or so that's required for estate taxes to kick in, so that's not an issue.

Now to the tougher ones...excise taxes. You're going to have to not buy anything. Sure, you're going to need some things, but perhaps you can whittle or something and trade your wares for what you need. Fuels, electricity, tobacco, alcohol, etc. You're not going to have electricity anyway so that won't be an issue. You will have to do some walking, or perhaps you can hitchike with one of us who is willing to pay taxes to support infrastructure like roads, traffic control devices, etc. You're going to have to grow your own tobacco and dope and make your own alcohol...all of which you are free to do without paying excise taxes.

The state taxes are next. We've already covered income tax. The next two are sales and property. Sales is pretty much the same as excise. You just can't buy retail. You can barter, trade your wares for cash (or as the folks I know who share your ideology call cage, FRN's [federal reserve notes]), etc. So sales tax isn't really that difficult to avoid. Hell, you can even buy a car of a certain value and not worry about it (not that you'll have gas to use with it...but maybe you can start making ethanol...darn, that 's not a bad idea, you might just be able to make this work).

The real kicker is property taxes. You could live off the rest of us and set up a tent in the national forrest, but at some point you're going to want a little holler to call your own. Remember, this is on the state side and not the federal side, but it's still a "tax." I'm sure you can homestead a small patch of woods and be totally exempt from property tax. But it wouldn't get you much. Your better option is going to be to move to one of the states that don't have property taxes. I believe those exist, but maybe not. But some states have pretty generous homestead exemptions. In Washington State for example, you won't owe a dime in property taxes if you don't make over a certain amount of money, which you won't!

The thing is, living without paying taxes is completely do-able. You can do it right here in the good old U S of A. While you're doing it, you'll be very glad that the rest of us pay taxes for things such as law enforcement, sanitation, public land (where you'll be living), roads for you to walk and hitch a ride on, a military to ward off invading nations - however unlikely, and even public assistance. The same public assistance that will keep others from living in your patch of woods and keep them from having to steal your handy-work by force. If you get hurt or sick, the rest of us will pay for you to get better - though not as good as you'd get if you were working and could afford private insurance.

There are definitely valid points to be made in the realm of what things are government functions and what things aren't. If you told me that it wasn't the federal government's responsibility to mandate insurance coverage, provide unemployment benefits for those that lose their jobs, or make sure that old people receive social security benefits, you would have a valid point. If you told me that it wasn't the federal government's responsibility to regulate interstate commerce, maintain a standing military (regardless of size), or provide care and social security benefits to orphans who lose their parents, then you would be a little whacky but you would still at least have a logical argument to make. But for someone who uses a computer to post on a website about fishing for stocked fish in public waters, presumably with a job and a house with a car or two in the garage, who no doubt receives and sends mail and might even have children in school to say that there is no justification for taxes and only brute force "extracts" them is just REALLY out in left field man.

[hoglaw]

You know...if you would have told a cotton grower back in the 1800's: Hey, you know that in a few years... we aren't going to need slaves to pick the cotton. In fact you aren't going to need people at all....except a few to run these great machines that pick the cotton for you. These machines are going to run on this black stuff we pull out of the ground. They are going to roll on wheels....made from the same black stuff that comes out of the ground....ect.

The cotton grower would have said a couple of things: 1. You are crazy 2. Please, can you give me one example where slave labor wasn't needed to build society. I mean when has society ever worked without slaves....they have been doing it since the Egyptian age....ect.

Wait....this is a joke, right? Are you saying that the slave utilizing cotton farmers were right to resisit abolition? Are you saying that we really need some slaves since that's how it's been for a long time? Or are you saying that...I honestly can't think of anything you could possibly be saying that would make sense. Are you saying that we're all slaves to some greater evil or something?\

Things change. Eventually you don't need a man to pick cotton. I.....I mean...you just....what the heck are you talking about?

[hoglaw]

Here's another one (if you don't know who Karl Rove is...there is no reason to read on....it's to late for you:

"We’re an empire now and when we act we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality judiciously, as you will, we’ll act again, creating other new realities which you can study too. And that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors and you, ALL of you, will be just left to study what we do.”

----- Karl Rove speaking to a small group of reporters at a cocktail party in 2004...... printed in the Washington Post.

well yeah, Karl Rove is a jackass. I'm not sure what point quoting anything that came out of his mouth serves.

If you want to talk about cows, moo-ing, etc., Karl Rove has suckled at the teet of politics more than just about anyone in history. He dropped out of college to pursue work with the republican party and never went back. He abandoned education and a career to marry well and pursue the life of a true career politician, but not someone that was charismatic enough to be in politics himself. No doubt the guy is seriously inteligent, just in an extremly devious - no boundaries - sort of way. Most recently, he apologized for saying that if someone killed Missouri's mentally challenged congressional candidate who talked about women having natural defenses to "legitimate rape." Maybe a noble sentiment to thing that guy..akins, akin, something like that...would serve the world by disappearing, but Rove's motivation for being pissed at the guy was purely because he said something so stupid he would hurt his own election chances as well as those associated with him.

I can't believe anyone quoted Karl Rove for any purpose other than to make a joke.

[fishinwrench]

Please elaborate Wrench....is this what you believe or are you being sarcastic?

Honestly I am starting to believe that is indeed the case.

So much of what seems totally absurd to ME is accepted and defended widely by people who should be way smarter than I am. So I am left to assume that there must be pertinent elements involved that I am just not aware of.

[hoglaw]

So are term limits the answer?

I'd most likely support them, tho I think some real finance reform is what I'd like to see. Take as much money out of the system as possible. Maybe give some free TV time to all, and then ban campaign ads on TV. I've read in several places that both sides spend almost 80% of their time in DC raising campaign money to stay in DC.

How do "we the people" fix that?

I'm with you here except for the term limits Mark. The expense of campaigns and the micro-economy that has become campaign finance is crippling this country. As an unapologetic lawyer, it pains me to see the fundraising and contributions that go into judicial elections. Aside from the fact that they are supposed to be non-partisan and apolitical, there's no reason they're any different from executive or legislative elections. When you have to raise money and corporate contributions and PAC contributions are unlimited, why would anyone think that the candidate would serve anyone other than those who contributed the most money.

Term limits are a great idea in prinicple. No entrenchment. Fresh blood. All good things. The problem that I encounter on a routine basis in Arkansas is that the devoted and inteligent elected officials who truly "serve" have to step down. Let's face it, there just aren't that many smart people in this state. And those who are smart enough are WAY too smart enough to run for state office. Instead, we get a bunch of yokel jackasses who grandstand and try to legislate morality regarless of the undeniable unconstitutionality of their efforts. It is really an embarassment. It would be nice to have some inteligent servants in office for extended periods of time, but there's no reason to think the jackasses wouldn't get entrenched as well. Term limits is a tough call for me, but I completely get the logic from those who support them.