Setting The Record Straight - Government Contractors

[Feathers and Fins]

Mic my poison would be honesty. I can see history repeating itself. Read our Declaration of Independence and see how many similarities there are too its grievances and what is happening now. I hear this current administration say ( Well Bush did it ) That does not make it right if he did, but that was also a time of shock and reaction to what happen on 9-11, It should have been reviewed and stopped if unconstitutional.Blame Bush is getting old heck its beyond old. And yes its a secret court when its rulings are secret.

I am very concerned about where things are going. Like I said read the Declaration of Independence and see how many things are similar today.

[Al Agnew]

I've read the Declaration of Independence many times. I've also studied history, including the history of those times. I don't agree with you. It was a different and much less complex world back then, and I just don't think you can equate anything that's happening now with what was happening then. Your suspicions sound to me just a little like tinfoil hat stuff.

The problems we have now can be attributed more to the complexities of today's world and the scale of government and society. I do not believe that any of this stuff is being done to amass power. It's done because the government has a mandate to protect the country from a very difficult, diffuse, hard to pin down threat, so the bureaucrats feel like they have to cast a wide net. So what CAN happen is somebody within the bureaucracy gets carried away, maybe even on their own little individual power trip, and goes a lot farther than they need to go or should go. But it isn't this big government conspiracy, though the technology COULD be used in a big government conspiracy if there was one. Show me the evidence that there is one. Show me the evidence that the government is out to get anybody who doesn't agree with the current administration.

Again, it's all a matter of risk. We could pass laws, or have Supreme Court decisions, prohibiting the government from invading anybody's assumed privacy. But that would mean they also couldn't invade the so-called privacy of bad guys, too. We could have all these decisions on whose privacy to invade in open court for everybody to see, but the bad guys would see it, too. So how much less effective would our protection from bad guys be?

Sorry, I'm not buying your brand of gloom and doom.

[fishinwrench]

. So what CAN happen is somebody within the bureaucracy gets carried away, maybe even on their own little individual power trip, and goes a lot farther than they need to go or should go. But it isn't this big government conspiracy, though the technology COULD be used in a big government conspiracy if there was one. Show me the evidence that there is one. Show me the evidence that the government is out to get anybody who doesn't agree with the current administration.

This is true, and is completely logical thought.... as of TODAY.

SOMEDAY though, we may not have a friendly happy go lucky leader who farts rainbows and pisses silly string. SOMEDAY we may by accident end up with a real SOB in charge, with a nasty agenda. Will we at that time want all of these forsaken rights and liberties in memory only, or should we try to hold onto them a while longer, as long as we can, just in case.

Is everyone REALLY scared of terrorists that can't be detected any other way?

The way I see it is; If your life is more effected by the FEAR of terrorists than it is by actual "terrorists attacks" then there's some F'd up Chicken Little mind control going on in your life.

Seriously, we are gradually getting closer to the point where a guy spotting vehicles in remote locations and floating to them in a canoe might seem REALLY SUSPICIOUS!

[Feathers and Fins]

Unfortunately I don't have time to get in to it all this morning Al, but you mean to tell me the IRS thing is not Government revenge or putting down of opposition to their views?

You are telling me a Drone Strike on a US citizen is ok?

You are telling me gathering information on all US citizens phone records and Emails is not a clear violation of search and seizure?

Come on we were lied to about Benghazi, Our congress which is US was lied to about the IRS and The Spying. This administration has a track record of lying. Ya Ya I know they will say some crap about being misinformed or their comments were taken out of context but the truth is they Lied. Its not Tinfoil hat when its happening. And like I said early I use to call people tinfoil hat conspiracies myself but now it seems those hats were justified in being worn. Ill get into the Declaration and Constitution later. But gotta get to work in a bit.

[mic]

F&F,

I have understood your point of view so far, but don't agree with you on where the line between privacy and security belongs.... until now.

You can't mix this NSA program, done in accordance with the law that "our Congress" passed, and the screwed up IRS issue. Your are mixing apples with oranges and then assigning guilt by association. If you don't like the Intelligence oversight law, push to pass it. As far as what was told to the US Congress, you do not know what was told to the Intelligence Committe in classified briefings so your logic is flawed. FYI... NSA just briefed to Congress that the program identified up 50 different possible bomb plots.

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I personnally think that Benghazi was just a good ole fashioned screw up that happens when the left hand isn't talking to the right. Right or wrong, fix the screw up and move on to what's important.

Drone strikes on US citizens. Is it legal to bomb an enemy combantant without court orders on foriegn land. HELL YES. You can't join an enemy army (as identified by the US Congress) and expect not to be targeted without a court order. Especially, when you serve in a leadership position. This arguement is nuts to me.

[mic]

Mic my poison would be honesty. I can see history repeating itself. Read our Declaration of Independence and see how many similarities there are too its grievances and what is happening now. I hear this current administration say ( Well Bush did it ) That does not make it right if he did, but that was also a time of shock and reaction to what happen on 9-11, It should have been reviewed and stopped if unconstitutional.Blame Bush is getting old heck its beyond old. And yes its a secret court when its rulings are secret.

I am very concerned about where things are going. Like I said read the Declaration of Independence and see how many things are similar today.

Let's go through your logic Dec of Independence (DOI):

DOI Para 1: When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another...a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

- Not sure how this applies as we have honest disagreement, but so did the people that wrote this document. I don't see a need for us to break up the USA into the Demo USA and Rep USA and the Indep USA

DOI Para 2: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

- Our founding fathers and the citizens before us have already establish a constitution that allows us to change the government with elections every two and four years, and the ability to change the consititution at any given time through its admendments.

DOI Para 2: Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

- Guess what... are founding fathers disagree with you. They specifically state that temporary issues should not lead to major changes.

DOI Para 3, 4, 5: List the US issues with the King and do not apply, but lets go through the big ones:

- He desolved elected government without assigning new ones.

- Kept foriegn standing armies over the governed, and using mercenaries to attack citizens

- Cutting off trade

- Recalling or eliminating charters (contracts)

- Plundering our lands

DOI Para 6: Declares our independance from the British Kingdom.

Sorry, not really much in common.

[Mitch f]

Mic, F&F was merely responding to Al's challenge. I really don't think he was comparing apples and oranges. As far as the the recent scandals, the IRS scandal is the most sinister. Benghazi was just CYA kind of spin to get things quiet before the election, and I agree with Mic it was just an incompetent screw up. The spying was something I always knew was going on and figured the people who didnt know this were just a little naive. But the IRS scandal really really pisses me off! Valerie Jarret said she would punish the opposition and it would be pay back time.....I think she was right. But what do I know I'm just a lemming that clings to God and Guns

[ness]

[OzarkFishman]

No matter what your opinion ... That is funny.

Thanks for that Ness.

[Feathers and Fins]

Mic We do not need 3 countries we need one based on the Constitution with strong remembrances to the reasons we dissolved ties with Great Britain. When listing DOI PARA 3 4 AND 5 you left out a bunch. Let me show you them and where they fall in todays USA.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

This can easily be seen in the IRS scandal, im not saying it goes all the way to the POTUS as they are still investigating it. However it is shown to go to Washington DC With the Tea Party being seriously scrutinized and holding them from obtain 3C this very possibly cost votes in the last election. Its speculation at this point how high it went but the IRS has acknowledged it happened. Yes I understand what the above quotes were talking about but when any person or group in politics use powers they have to stop free elections it can be applied as the "cause others to be elected"

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

Immigration is a mess from all political parties. What part of Illegal do they not get! I can go on forever about this one. And both parties wanting to do so many things and talk about this and that. We have immigration laws enforce them and stop playing politics. If people want to come here im all for it but follow the law.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

Secret court and it is just that plain and simple.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

Czars and IRS scandal... Let me be extremely clear on Czars, that is a title of nobility specifically forbidden in our constitution. How many officers does the IRS have any clue and they sure are harassing the people and arguably with their 50 million dollars in parties eating from our substance. Of all the issues I have with the government this one screams loudest both DOI and Constitutionally.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

and

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

and

For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

Military strike on a US citizen without due process. sorry this is clear as well. I don't care who it was the law applies to all. Also the Gitmo detainees. Yes I know what they are accused of but lets have the trials and justice enough is enough our laws must apply to all we detain even. I may not like who they are and would even volunteer to put the bullet in their heads but let Justice decide their fait.

For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

Obamacare all and that is ALL polls showed between 73 and 87% of the people were against this yet it was shoved down our throats without consent and in fact with numerous descents from the states. There are more but that's the glaring example.

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I'm not getting at the Current President or Congress or any one Party. I'm upset with our government that has become to large to powerful and doing to many things comparisons to our nations founding can be compared to. In fact one that is clearly against the constitution in a title of nobility! And who are those Czars answerable to? The President! I see our nation in debt to a unfathomable amount and yet they keep hiring more and more people on and instituting more taxes and burdens on the people. Many comparisons can easily be drawn to Today and our Founders time. Government is no longer Of the people by the people its of the Government for the Government. Government needs to be cleaned out all parties are to blame not just one.

My phone and E-mails records even if just the number dialed is not our governments business without a warrant based on probable cause. Obamacare is costing use jobs and money... The IRS did target political enemies of the democrats.... Benghazi was a lie and to this day the POTUS will not say where he was that night. Fast and Furious was another cover up that cost an officer his life.... Our Government did target a US Citizen without due process.... Our Government is holding people on Gitmo without trial..... Those are facts and truths and so many more but my soapbox time is getting short. I honestly don't care what political affiliation you have wrong is still wrong and it sucks we have to have a whistle blower come out with the dirty laundry to see how far wrong our governments gotten. Ya ya in the name of safety and security. Funny 30 years ago I road a bicycle with no helmet now we have laws you have to wear one.