Meramec River Shooting

[moguy1973]

Hopefully this example will illustrate where I’m coming from:

A family owns land on the Meramec. Very nice gravel bar. They swim, fish, boat, picnic, drink a few, ATV, four-wheel, etc. Good times.

The property is not on a heavily used stretch, so the problems with floaters are minimal. And no one in the family cares one whit if people stop there occasionally, camp and move on. (Which they do). All good.

However, for sake of discussion, let’s say an outfitter buys a farm up the river and starts dumping hordes of floaters onto this stretch. The very nice gravel bar is now crowded with floaters on the weekends. Many of them are drunk and disorderly. They pull their canoes up right next to where the family is hanging out. They leer at the ladies. They cuss, litter, play loud music and generally make a nuisance of themselves. The family game cameras occasionally are spotting them in the woods, even messing in Grandpa’s garden. Sure, the family could ask them to leave but are you going to confront a gang of river drunks?They've call the sheriff but the sheriff says sorry, not much we can do.

So the family goes to the outfitter and says we got problems. Your floaters are ruining our property. The outfitter says sorry, ain’t my deal. The hordes keep coming. Finally one of the nephews has had enough and confronts some who’ve crossed the line. A fight ensues and nephew gets beat up. His ATV gets trashed.

The family has had enough. They hire a lawyer and sue the outfitter for damages. The nice gravel bar is now overrun with his floaters. The family can no longer reasonably use it on weekends. They have pictures, game cams, cellphone videos to document. Family says If outfitter’s floaters are taking over our gravel bar, we need to get paid!

What does the court say? I don’t know. It’s a tricky question, to be sure. But if I was the outfitter I'd want a pretty good lawyer.

In that case you go above the sheriff because obviously he isn't doing his job if these people are obviously trespassing. If it were my property, a fence would have gone up clearly marking the property line as well as a lot of purple paint on the trees. Not that that would stop them, but it would clearly show they are breaking the law if the cross those lines. Get a couple mean sounding dogs to help deter them from crossing the lines too. Big chainsaw spring traps that would cut them in half if they stepped onto your property would work too...

[Justin Spencer]

We had a similar situation (minus the outfitter angle, which is absurd in my opinion) in Ozark County a couple of years ago. A popular swimming spot (not on a main stream by any means and I swam there a LOT as a kid) had been marked private property by new owners. Thing is, it is located at the end of a County Road, the County Road stops at the gravel bar itself....double easements. A rough family is down there partying, an illegal alien drives an atv down there to run them off, words are exchanged, illegal alien gets punched, illegal alien pulls gun and shoots an 18 year old. Illegal alien gets convicted and deported, land/stream rights don't get taken away from anyone, and the manufacturer of the ATV doesn't get a finger pointed at them the whole time.

Must have had a bad lawyer, obviously without the ATV none of this would have ever happened.

[Justin Spencer]

From an outfitter standpoint I would be worried about the victim's family suing me more than anything. Luckily a few years ago the Missouri legislature reformed the tort law pursuant to Missouri outfitters relieving us of liability due to the inherent risks involved in the paddlesports industry. I guess this now includes unruly landowners.

[Terrierman]

Is this an example or a theoretical?

Hopefully this example will illustrate where I’m coming from:

A family owns land on the Meramec. Very nice gravel bar. They swim, fish, boat, picnic, drink a few, ATV, four-wheel, etc. Good times.

The property is not on a heavily used stretch, so the problems with floaters are minimal. And no one in the family cares one whit if people stop there occasionally, camp and move on. (Which they do). All good.

However, for sake of discussion, let’s say an outfitter buys a farm up the river and starts dumping hordes of floaters onto this stretch. The very nice gravel bar is now crowded with floaters on the weekends. Many of them are drunk and disorderly. They pull their canoes up right next to where the family is hanging out. They leer at the ladies. They cuss, litter, play loud music and generally make a nuisance of themselves. The family game cameras occasionally are spotting them in the woods, even messing in Grandpa’s garden. Sure, the family could ask them to leave but are you going to confront a gang of river drunks?They've call the sheriff but the sheriff says sorry, not much we can do.

So the family goes to the outfitter and says we got problems. Your floaters are ruining our property. The outfitter says sorry, ain’t my deal. The hordes keep coming. Finally one of the nephews has had enough and confronts some who’ve crossed the line. A fight ensues and nephew gets beat up. His ATV gets trashed.

The family has had enough. They hire a lawyer and sue the outfitter for damages. The nice gravel bar is now overrun with his floaters. The family can no longer reasonably use it on weekends. They have pictures, game cams, cellphone videos to document. Family says If outfitter’s floaters are taking over our gravel bar, we need to get paid!

What does the court say? I don’t know. It’s a tricky question, to be sure. But if I was the outfitter I'd want a pretty good lawyer.

[Justin Spencer]

Is this an example or a theoretical?

Afraid it was theoretical, lot of work for what?

[Wayne SW/MO]

Gravel bars come and go.

Brian I would think the parents of the 18 year old could have owned all the landowner had. The guy on the ATV would have been their agent I would think and their responsibility..

[Greasy B]

In that case you go above the sheriff because obviously he isn't doing his job if these people are obviously trespassing. If it were my property, a fence would have gone up clearly marking the property line as well as a lot of purple paint on the trees. Not that that would stop them, but it would clearly show they are breaking the law if the cross those lines. Get a couple mean sounding dogs to help deter them from crossing the lines too. Big chainsaw spring traps that would cut them in half if they stepped onto your property would work too...

I hope most folks realize that only a fraction of our Ozark streams are infected with commercial party floaters, granted they and recreational power boaters contaminate most of the best watered and beautiful streams. We are fortunate to have many miles of rivers and creeks where quiet float fishing goes on with little or no conflicts. If my angling future holds nothing more than barbed wired, purple paint, and mean dogs I don’t want anything to do with it and frankly life as I know will cease to exist.

[cnr]

Hmmm...I'm with JoeD now. We're on page 10 of this topic and not one word about the man who died at the end of a gun 5 days ago. But all doom and gloom about OUR rights to gravel.

[lee G.]

cnr, dont lose sight of the fact that the killing was over the right to gravel, it is a concern.

I wont go into the factors that made it worse than it should have been, thats been done.

[Justin Spencer]

Hmmm...I'm with JoeD now. We're on page 10 of this topic and not one word about the man who died at the end of a gun 5 days ago. But all doom and gloom about OUR rights to gravel.

There was another thread about this as well where most people agreed that the landowner was way out of line and should be put away for what he did. Several talked about praying for family, etc.