Shadow Bass From Norfork. Definite Maybe

[fishinwrench]

I only let a fang show because it is a thread about food, and I'm getting hungry.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Had a plate of Shadow bass a couple of weeks ago.

[Notropis]

Good job finally identifying the fish species as an Ozark Bass. We used to get quite a few in fish population samples on Lake Norfork, particularly in the lower end of the lake. They're common in the rivers of Northwest and North Central Arkansas ( as Al said, Upper White River) . The only rivers in NW Arkansas that don't have them are the Illinois River and Spavinaw Creek which have shadow bass.

I'm fairly certain, Arkansas has not stocked any of the three rock bass species (at least in stocking records the past 30 years).

Cheers

[Chief Grey Bear]

Here one each Ozark bass and Shadow for comparison.

I edited and cropped the pic to give a better view.

[grizwilson]

image.jpg

image.jpg

Here one each Ozark bass and Shadow for comparison.

are they in the same order on the plate? mmmmm

[Chief Grey Bear]

Ha, no. I haven't ate a Ozark yet.

Actually caught that Ozark while fishing with Terrierman over in his neck of the woods last year.

[Al Agnew]

Chief, most sources say the Ozark bass don't interbreed with the others, and have not been established anywhere outside their native range, so they should be pure. Shadow bass and northern rock bass do interbreed, and there was most certainly some indiscriminate stocking of both species in the distant past. However, any stocking of one species into the native range of another species where there had to already be a decent population of the natives would probably result in the native species genetically swamping the introduced one, so while there may have been hybridization in the past, it could by now be pretty well gone.

Only question is, is it true as many biologists contend that there were no native Ambloplites species in the Gasconade and Osage systems? If so, if both shadow bass and northern rock bass were stocked in those systems, it would seem a bit more likely that the resulting fish could STILL have mixed genetics, since neither species would have been coming into a system dominated by the other. The fact that Gasconade and Osage fish appear to be pure northern rock bass would seem to indicate that only the northern rock bass were stocked originally, or else the northern rock bass were always there. The Peterson Field Guide says northern rock bass were only native to the Meramec system in the Ozarks. "Fishes of the Central United States", by Eberle and Tomelleri, says northern rock bass are common in the Meramec, Osage, Gasconade, AND in the Neosho-Grand drainage. Several sources on the internet say that it's difficult to ID Ambloplites species in some streams of the Neosho-Grand drainage because of likely interbreeding of shadow bass and northern rock bass.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Chief, most sources say the Ozark bass don't interbreed with the others, and have not been established anywhere outside their native range, so they should be pure. Shadow bass and northern rock bass do interbreed, and there was most certainly some indiscriminate stocking of both species in the distant past. However, any stocking of one species into the native range of another species where there had to already be a decent population of the natives would probably result in the native species genetically swamping the introduced one, so while there may have been hybridization in the past, it could by now be pretty well gone.

I think right there tells you there was no indiscriminate stocking. If there had been then most certainly Ozarks would have been included. How do we know if the Ozark will or will not interbreed? Why wouldn't it?

Back to the stocking for a minute. Who would have done it and why? Life in the Ozarks was hard enough. There was no time to do this. People were busy tending chores and eeking out a living. What purpose would it have severed? That would have been a lot of driving on very bad roads if not just a trail. Why Goggle eye?

We know the State didn't do it. So who was it? What evidence does your source site?

Only question is, is it true as many biologists contend that there were no native Ambloplites species in the Gasconade and Osage systems? If so, if both shadow bass and northern rock bass were stocked in those systems, it would seem a bit more likely that the resulting fish could STILL have mixed genetics, since neither species would have been coming into a system dominated by the other. The fact that Gasconade and Osage fish appear to be pure northern rock bass would seem to indicate that only the northern rock bass were stocked originally, or else the northern rock bass were always there. The Peterson Field Guide says northern rock bass were only native to the Meramec system in the Ozarks. "Fishes of the Central United States", by Eberle and Tomelleri, says northern rock bass are common in the Meramec, Osage, Gasconade, AND in the Neosho-Grand drainage. Several sources on the internet say that it's difficult to ID Ambloplites species in some streams of the Neosho-Grand drainage because of likely interbreeding of shadow bass and northern rock bass.

I have not read that some biologists state that Ambloplites were not native to those systems. At best, it doesn't appear if anyone really knows. You have just posted three different scenarios from three different sources. And that is what is troubling.

Here is from another source online just by doing a quick google. By this source it appears there are no Shadows in SWMO. It appears there is getting to be too much unsubstantiated information that can lead to confusion.

(I added the common name in parentheses for clarification)

North American Distribution:

• A. rupestris (Northern)

  • Common from St. Lawrence River and Great Lakes, Hudson Bay and Mississippi River basins, south to northern Georgia and northern Alabama.

  • Widely introduced throughout the U.S.

• A. constellatus (Ozark)

  • Endemic to the upper White River drainage of Missouri and Arkansas where it is locally common.

• A. ariommus (Shadow)

  • Common in Gulf Slope drainages from Georgia to Louisiana and the lower Mississippi River basin.

Can post your links? I would like to see these several sources.

One thing that is interesting about this is, is that much like the Nesosho Smallmouth, the Shadow seems to be on its own island in this corner of the state. Did it migrate to these clear waters at the same time the Neosho did?

[tjulianc]

Chief,

In the Elk river system are there northern rock bass, shadow or both? I find it difficult to distinguish between the northern and shadow.

For example is this a shadow bass or northern rock bass?

[drew03cmc]

Cheif,

In the Elk river system are there northern rock bass, shadow or both? I find it difficult to distinguish between the northern and shadow.

For example is this a shadow bass or northern rock bass?

20150118_134110.jpg

IMO, that is a Shadow bass, like the one in my avatar. Mine was caught in the same system as that one, but a different River. The Ozark streams of the middle Neosho system seems to have some Shadows in it, contrary to everything to everything I have seen.