The Oregon Standoff

[jtram]

16 minutes ago, Flysmallie said:

I agree with that. The first judge made a mistake but they should not be able to go back on that.

But what Douchebag Bundy is doing by occupying federal property is doing nothing to help that. If he wanted to help he should have been spending his time raising funds to fight it legally. But like last time he just wants his name in the media. He's a loose cannon that will have to be dealt with sooner than later.

Had they not been sent back to prison would this have happened? I doubt it and respect the man for standing up for what he believes is right. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he does....

[mic]

30 minutes ago, jtram said:

A lot of speculation on the poaching. I dont agree with everything bundy is doing, I do feel as if the government is overusing its power to set an example and to keep others too afraid to challenge. To me (a conservative libertarian, the government should not interfere with our lives, it was meant to protect us and to serve the people  (not financially but thats another topic ugh)) and this entire thing reeks of too much government oversight. Public land is all of ours to share, they were legally utilizing the land, controversially set a fire, were convicted and did their time and now have to go back and serve more time because someone thought they should. Sending them back to prison for a crime they have already served time for is where I have a MAJOR issue, not the original sentencing. If they were incorrectly sentenced, thats on the judge, not them. As for the poaching, that is a story spun and blown up by the media to paint them as bad people, and it worked. Maybe they did start the fire to cover it up, but they were NOT convicted and it is irrelevant to the core issue at hand.

I agree with everything you say with one exception... maybe.  I would "assume" that if the jury would not have found them guilty of "arson" if they simply had a fire get away from them (twice mind you).  If the jury believed they set the fires with the intent to go onto the public lands, then the hell with them.  Send them back.  If that was not the case, then I agree with you. 

[Quillback]

3 hours ago, Mark said:

Question: How did the fed govt acquire all of the fed land? Has it been fed land since the birth of the state of Oregon? I read that one issue that ranchers have is the questionable methods the govt used to acquire the land. Oregon is a big state, and if half the land is fed owned, that's alot of land that the state is not receiving any tax revenue on. Is any of the land ever for sale? Or is the land designated fed land for eternity?

Trying to understand the entire situation.

As far as taxes, the land is generating revenue for the federal government in the form of grazing fees.  If the land were to be somehow transferred to private ownership, then they would probably pay some sort of real estate tax to the county, and maybe state.  Probably would be a minimal tax as most of the BLM land is not exactly prime grazing land and would not be valued very highly.  And, farm land tends to be taxed at a lot less than commercial or residential real estate.  Probably not much to be gained from a tax standpoint by transferring the land to private ownership.  Heck, these guys don't want to pay grazing fees, they'd probably protest just as loudly if they had to pay taxes on the land.  And just to be clear, I'm referring to the protesters who, for the most part, do not represent the majority ranchers or farmers.

The specifics of who owns that wildlife refuge, well the Paiutes say that they were the original landowners, they signed a treaty to sign the land over to the federal government, BUT Congress did not ratify the treaty.  So a good case could be made that the land still belongs to the Paiutes.

A good chunk of western land was acquired by the federal government through treaties negotiated with Indian tribes.  US government being the only government entity that can sign treaties, so the land went to the feds.  It then got parceled out to homesteaders or to the railroads.  Lots of shady dealing between the government and the railroads as to how the land got distributed, makes for some interesting reading if you ever have the time.

[Flysmallie]

17 minutes ago, jtram said:

Had they not been sent back to prison would this have happened? I doubt it and respect the man for standing up for what he believes is right. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he does....

Eventually the government would be dealing with Bundy whether this happened or not. He's been trying to push the government into a battle for a long time. This is just his most recent excuse. Try and do a little reading up on the situation. The gentlemen that are in prison didn't request Bundy's help. The people of that community want them to leave. This is nothing more than an asshat being an asshat.

People that have respect for Bundy haven't done enough to inform themselves. I'm in no way pro government but just being a douche because you don't like something is ignorant. And gain, if it wasn't an election year or he was anything besides a white conservative then he would be dead or in jail right now. Just more political ignorance.

[Justin Spencer]

Looks like citizens are taking things into their own hands, keep up the good work and please join in if you are against these terrorists.

 

 

http://gawker.com/angry-militia-leader-stop-mailing-us-dildos-1752580458

[Flysmallie]

14 minutes ago, Justin Spencer said:

Looks like citizens are taking things into their own hands, keep up the good work and please join in if you are against these terrorists.

 

 

http://gawker.com/angry-militia-leader-stop-mailing-us-dildos-1752580458

That is awesome!!

 

How is the river looking Justin?

[SpoonDog]

44 minutes ago, jtram said:

Had they not been sent back to prison would this have happened? I doubt it and respect the man for standing up for what he believes is right. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he does....

It stinks the judge didn't follow the instructions the first time the two arsonists (the Hammonds?) wound up in court.  But that doesn't mean they were innocent.  Anyone convicted of a drug crime (and poor) will tell you Mandatory Minimum Sentencing sucks- that means you fix the law, it doesn't mean you grab your gun and occupy the local post office.

  If Ammon Bundy's gonna convince the general public he's defending the Constitution, he's gonna have to wrap his brain around the rule of law. 

[Mark]

I agree with others on this issue - I immediately thought it was total BS for the two men to be sent back to prison after being released after serving the original sentence. If they did not serve the minimum required originally, that is on the shoulders of the original judge. I have been hesitant to condemn the protesters because I didn't know all of the facts, and maybe still don't. If this is a harmless act of civil disobedience, I applaud the guts to do it. But there are people in the NW US that are militants, anti government, even racists, so I don't know if that is the case with all of the protesters, some of them, or a small percentage. And I also recall Ruby Ridge and Waco, and how that all turned out and is a scar on our nation, even if the victims were wrong, they didn't deserve to die. And I may be wrong, but I can't help but agree with some national journalists who make the claim that if this wasn't a white group of protesters, the situation would be viewed as different and the law enforcement reactions would be different. Finally, the ranchers claim that there has been discrimination in how the BLM has dictated who and how much the ranchers can use the fed land for grazing. I don't know if that is true, but I am suspicious enough of the federal govt to, at the very least, not rule it out.

[Justin Spencer]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

I agree with others on this issue - I immediately thought it was total BS for the two men to be sent back to prison after being released after serving the original sentence. If they did not serve the minimum required originally, that is on the shoulders of the original judge. I have been hesitant to condemn the protesters because I didn't know all of the facts, and maybe still don't. If this is a harmless act of civil disobedience, I applaud the guts to do it. But there are people in the NW US that are militants, anti government, even racists, so I don't know if that is the case with all of the protesters, some of them, or a small percentage. And I also recall Ruby Ridge and Waco, and how that all turned out and is a scar on our nation, even if the victims were wrong, they didn't deserve to die. And I may be wrong, but I can't help but agree with some national journalists who make the claim that if this wasn't a white group of protesters, the situation would be viewed as different and the law enforcement reactions would be different. Finally, the ranchers claim that there has been discrimination in how the BLM has dictated who and how much the ranchers can use the fed land for grazing. I don't know if that is true, but I am suspicious enough of the federal govt to, at the very least, not rule it out.

Civil disobedience does not involve arming yourselves and occupying government buildings.  I hope they have a peaceful ending and then issue these men some government owned clothes and allow them to occupy a government facility in Leavenworth for 5-10, maybe a reunion with the Hammonds is the best thing for them.  This cannot go unpunished even though government does overstep its bounds it is still our government and must be respected.

[Brian Sloss]

Think of it this way, I work in the outfitting business on the 11 Point and I am licensed to do so with the US gov't as the own the land and river.  I rightly pay the gov't every year to do so.  Do I always agree with every decision they make regarding the management of the resource? Of course not, no one ever will.  We all have different priorities at times.  But if I were to not pay my license fees to the gov't because I didn't like a management decision in regard to the river, but still continued to run my business utilizing gov't property, I would rightly expect to be punished (ie loose my license and then they would go after me in court for payment of said fees).  Now, if in protest I armed myself to the teeth and took over the Greer campground and access area,  I would rightly assume my next stop would be prison and I assume all the fishermen on here would agree that I should be "sent up the river" for holding your land and recreational ground hostage.  That quite simply is what the Bundy clowns have been up to.