What Are These Sunfish?

[tjm]

I have always thought that all the sunfish hybridize with all the others, I know I've caught a lot that didn't match any of the pictures published as typical of this or that.

Locally I think they would all be "perch", only recall three kinds of fish when I was kid; suckers, perch and flatheads. If there were any other fish in these streams no one would admit to catching them.

[Johnsfolly]

7 hours ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

Well you both made me dig deep into my pictorial archives. And I see validity in your arguments. The one in my pic looks very similar to what Harry posted. And would have bet the opposite! But I still have never seen one that dark. Yet. 

You count all you want Al. That's too much work for me. LOL!! I have thought about it at different times, but always ended up deciding to leave it to the professionals. 

Now I do believe the Ozark is the smaller of the three. The Shadow's I've caught far exceed any Ozark without question in size. In fact there is one creek in the area that produces so many lager Shadows, an MDC biologist has contemplated doing a study to see if they may be a genetical difference or they just eat a whole lot better. 

I have spoken with Robert Hrabik (currently working a revision of the Fishes of Missouri guidebook) and he basically stated that the rock bass in SW MO are a mess. There have been lots of bucket migrations and possibly a fair amount of hybridization. I have not counted scale rows though have been inclined to do so for other fish id work. With rock bass I have fished in the traditional locations for each of the three species and tended to avoid cross over areas.

2 hours ago, Phil Lilley said:

Man, I can see someone going on a quest to catch all these species.  Pretty amazing we have all these in our area.

Anyone ever do it?

Not yet Phil ! I'm working on it.

Here is a listing of the sunfish, i.e., Centrarchidae family, that I have caught so far. Except for the redbreast, pumpkinseed, shoal bass, redeye bass, and the Florida largemouth, all of these I have caught in Missouri or Arkansas.

Common
Name	Species
Shadow Bass	Ambloplites ariommus
Ozark bass	Ambloplites constellatus
Northern Rock Bass (goggle eye)	Ambloplites rupestris
Redbreast Sunfish	Lepomis auritus
Green Sunfish	Lepomis cyanellus
Pumpkinseed Sunfish	Lepomis gibbosus
Orangespotted Sunfish	Lepomis humilus
Bluegill Sunfish	Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus
Hybrid Sunfish (B/G)	L macrochirus X L. cyanellus
Longear Sunfish	Lepomis megalotis
Redear Sunfish	Lepomis microlophus
Shoal Bass	Micropterus cataractae
Redeye Bass (Coosa)	Micropterus coosae
Smallmouth bass	Micropterus dolomieu
Smallmouth bass - Neosho	Micropterus dolomieu velox
Spotted Bass	Micropterus punctulatus
Florida Largemouth bass	Micropterus salmoides floridanus
Northern Largemouth bass	Micropterus salmoides salmoides
White Crappie	Pomoxis annularis
Black Crappie	Pomoxis nigromaculatus

[Chief Grey Bear]

I don't buy the bucket migration theory. I know it's been tossed around here a lot. 

What purpose would it serve? There are very abundant populations in every stream. Who would spend all the time and energy it would take. 

I don't how deep of a study there has been on the Rock Bass species. I'm positive there has been some studies. 

You'll have to have some pretty concrete evidence for me. I know the same has been said about the Neosho but current DNA research is showing that not to be anywhere near the case. 

[BilletHead]

27 minutes ago, Johnsfolly said:

I have spoken with Robert Hrabik (currently working a revision of the Fishes of Missouri guidebook) and he basically stated that the rock bass in SW MO are a mess. There have been lots of bucket migrations and possibly a fair amount of hybridization. I have not counted scale rows though have been inclined to do so for other fish id work. With rock bass I have fished in the traditional locations for each of the three species and tended to avoid cross over areas.

Not yet Phil ! I'm working on it.

Here is a listing of the sunfish, i.e., Centrarchidae family, that I have caught so far. Except for the redbreast, pumpkinseed, shoal bass, redeye bass, and the Florida largemouth, all of these I have caught in Missouri or Arkansas.

Common
Name	Species
Shadow Bass	Ambloplites ariommus
Ozark bass	Ambloplites constellatus
Northern Rock Bass (goggle eye)	Ambloplites rupestris
Redbreast Sunfish	Lepomis auritus
Green Sunfish	Lepomis cyanellus
Pumpkinseed Sunfish	Lepomis gibbosus
Orangespotted Sunfish	Lepomis humilus
Bluegill Sunfish	Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus
Hybrid Sunfish (B/G)	L macrochirus X L. cyanellus
Longear Sunfish	Lepomis megalotis
Redear Sunfish	Lepomis microlophus
Shoal Bass	Micropterus cataractae
Redeye Bass (Coosa)	Micropterus coosae
Smallmouth bass	Micropterus dolomieu
Smallmouth bass - Neosho	Micropterus dolomieu velox
Spotted Bass	Micropterus punctulatus
Florida Largemouth bass	Micropterus salmoides floridanus
Northern Largemouth bass	Micropterus salmoides salmoides
White Crappie	Pomoxis annularis
Black Crappie	Pomoxis nigromaculatus

We all know you are special John, this just proves it ,

  BilletHead

[Al Agnew]

According to the existing Fishes of Missouri book, and the Fishes of Arkansas book:

shadow bass--mainly Black, St. Francis, and Castor river systems, and Illinois and Arkansas river systems in Arkansas, also the Little Red river system

Ozark bass--upper White River system down to but not including the Black river system, with a few outliers in the Sac and Pomme de Terre systems

rock bass--Elk and Spring river system, and Niangua, Gasconade, Meramec river systems, and the smaller streams running directly into the Mississippi in the eastern Ozarks.  Fishes of Arkansas says they are the Ambloplites species that is found in the Elk river system, disagreeing with the Missouri book.

flier--mainly Bootheel waters but extending up into the lower Castor and tributaries on the southeastern edge of the Ozarks.

redbreast sunfish--not native to the Ozarks, but was stocked in a small lake in the Sylamore Creek drainage in Arkansas, and in the Spring River below Mammoth Spring. They survived and spread for a while but apparently are no longer found in those areas.

Green sunfish--found throughout the Ozarks.

pumpkinseed--has only been found once, in the upper Meramec.  Probably not in the Ozarks at all.

warmouth--scattered throughout most of the Ozarks.  Probably most common in the St. Francis and Castor river systems.

orangespotted sunfish--uncommon to absent over much of the central Ozarks, but common in the Spring river system in southwest Missouri, and in the Osage river system.

bluegill--everywhere.

dollar sunfish--rare in small streams at the edge of the Ozarks in southeastern Missouri.

longear sunfish--everywhere.

redear sunfish--native to most of the Ozarks, but uncommon except as escapees from stocked ponds and lakes.

spotted sunfish--mainly in the Spring River system (Arkansas) and Little Red river system.

redspotted sunfish--uncommon in the Eleven Point, Black, Current, St. Francis, and Castor rivers and tributaries.

(And, of course, the smallmouth, largemouth, and spotted bass are sunfish, as are black and white crappie.)

So it would be a challenge to catch all the Ozark sunfish species...and you'd have to decide whether to include the very marginal species.

[Chief Grey Bear]

I think it depends on what source you choose to believe as to the accuracy of distribution for the Shadow.

Case and point.

At this point, I am of the belief that there is a pocket of Shadow's that inhibit the same waters as the Neosho.  

As you and I have discussed, the Northern appears to occupy mainly north flowing streams. Identification for the Northern is mostly a brown or bronze color with the dark scale spots in a horizontal pattern. I have not caught one, that I can remember, in the west flowing streams. 

The Shadow identification appears to mostly be a lighter, more greenish hue, depending on its current mood, with a camo like dark blotching that runs in a vertical pattern. It also has dark scale marks in a horizontal pattern. 

We've already discussed the Ozark and it's distribution. 

 

 

[MoCarp]

20 hours ago, Phil Lilley said:

Man, I can see someone going on a quest to catch all these species.  Pretty amazing we have all these in our area.

Anyone ever do it?

 

19 hours ago, Flysmallie said:

Catch one of every sunfish in the Ozarks? Okay. Anybody have a list of what that is and the best place to find them? 

the pits in SE Kansas has most shoal creek has all 3 rock bass species the upper reaches of elk river drainage has lots of shadow bass..kinda reminds me of how a sauger is colored

9 hours ago, Al Agnew said:

redbreast sunfish--not native to the Ozarks, but was stocked in a small lake in the Sylamore Creek drainage in Arkansas, and in the Spring River below Mammoth Spring. They survived and spread for a while but apparently are no longer found in those areas.

orangespotted sunfish--uncommon to absent over much of the central Ozarks, but common in the Spring river system in southwest Missouri, and in the Osage river system.

 

any stream feeding spring river has orange spotted they tend to be pretty small

A carper friend of mine catches redbreasts near KC in streams..I never caught any outside of the deep south but they are around it seems Ill message him to post some captures

[tjm]

10 hours ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

I think it depends on what source you choose to believe as to the accuracy of distribution for the Shadow.

Absolutely. In trying to find out what I caught over the years I've seen pictures of what looked like the same fish identified by different names.

I have seen rock bass called warmouth in articles and I have seen them listed as different species in other articles.

Once had a warden tell me the fish I had in Elk drainage was a Kentucky bass, but he did not count the scales or examine the teeth. I never bothered to find out what exactly made a Kentucky bass different.

Catch what look like hybrid google eye X blue gill some times too, deep very thick very black red eyed monsters. I did read once that rock bass could change color to match their environment, I don't know about that but have caught some that looked quite different from the ones just up stream a hundred yards and at the time did not know there was more than one species.

How would Elk and Spring rivers not be a part of the Arkansas River system? And drainage is not far separated, some place a spilled bucket of water could run half into White and half into Elk; another some place half could run into White River and half into Illinois River; some other place half would drain into Elk and half into Illinois; and there is place where half would run into Spring River and half would run into Elk River.

12 hours ago, Al Agnew said:

rock bass--Elk and Spring river system, and Niangua, Gasconade, Meramec river systems, and the smaller streams running directly into the Mississippi in the eastern Ozarks.  Fishes of Arkansas says they are the Ambloplites species that is found in the Elk river system, disagreeing with the Missouri book.

Not sure there is disagreement ; when I searched Ambloplites species I got; southern rock bass (Ambloplites ariommus) (= shadow bass??)
 Ozark rock bass (Ambloplites constellatus)
northern rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris)
shadow bass (Ambloplites ariommus)

It was easier way back then, call them all either 'little ol perch' or 'just some black perch'.. 

[tjm]

20 hours ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

I don't buy the bucket migration theory. I know it's been tossed around here a lot. 

I have known of a few instances where a spring branch was dammed and the resulting "lake" "bucket stocked" with fish caught in different drainages, both Shoal Creek drainage and Illinois River drainage fish moved into Elk River drainage. Probably some from the White drainage as well.  I've seen these ponds wash out in later floods too. How a hundred or so mature fish would change the down stream DNA reservoir is beyond my knowledge.   Couldn't guess how many times this might have happened, I've only seen it a few times.