Gloom And Doom Hits Home.

[ness]

And Stan Kroenke has municipalities fighting each other to give him TIF money to build walmarts. And he is holding Rams fans in STL hostage, threatening to move the team unless we the people build him a new stadium. How much money flows to the very rich in this country all in the name of job creation. Right now we are watching a boom in gas and oil production in large part due to fracking, after the powers that be make their billions and move on who will clean up the mess left behind, you all know who,we the people.

We're all stuck with the lousy choices we make every 4 years, where the hell is Harry Truman when you need him. I'm with Agnew and a rising chorus in the country, vote em all out.

Yeah, where's a guy like Harry when you need him? He rose to prominence in the Senate primarily through his efforts to root out waste in government military spending. He didn't make many friends, but he wasn't looking to make friends.

[Terrierman]

Who in a position of leadership in either Jefferson City or Washington D.C. do you trust to work towards getting anything meaningful done? I do note that the Republican congress is going to work to remove the DOD cuts from sequestration. And the White House isn't saying anything about veto either. Military Industrial Complex above all else I guess. Very disappointing, and has been for a long long time.

[jeb]

Lots of stuff to discuss here. I'll start with one of what I think are myths about government assistance, and that is that the government assistance itself keeps people on the dole, permitting them to not work and just live "comfortably" on the government benefits. Did you ever try to live "comfortably" on government benefits? Especially if you are in a place like much of America, where you see the "other half" living REALLY comfortably.

The class warfare part of your statement has nothing to do with it. There will always be folks that have more than you, sometimes much more, in any society. And there are lots of people living comfortably, in part or in whole because of govt largess.

What poverty means in the USA.

From the link:

As scholar James Q. Wilson has stated, “The poorest Americans today live a better life than all but the richest persons a hundred years ago.”[3] In 2005, the typical household defined as poor by the government had a car and air conditioning. For entertainment, the household had two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, and a VCR. If there were children, especially boys, in the home, the family had a game system, such as an Xbox or a PlayStation.[4] In the kitchen, the household had a refrigerator, an oven and stove, and a microwave. Other household conveniences included a clothes washer, clothes dryer, ceiling fans, a cordless phone, and a coffee maker.

The home of the typical poor family was not overcrowded and was in good repair. In fact, the typical poor American had more living space than the average European. The typical poor American family was also able to obtain medical care when needed. By its own report, the typical family was not hungry and had sufficient funds during the past year to meet all essential needs.

That's what we called middle class when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's.

Now personally, I'm okay with cutting the lazy people off welfare. But how do you pick which ones are lazy, and which ones are just not able to get and keep any kind of living wage job? And even with the lazy ones, what do you then do about their kids, who by no fault of their own are stuck with lazy and disfunctional parents? And what do you do with the ones who, once cut off, simply can't get and keep a job? Let them starve or else steal to eat?

We get down to making the hard decisions. Get the govt out of the way of job creators. We make personal responsibility the norm instead of the exception. We get back to what made this country great, and a big part of that was being able to fail.

Now, about government not being like a business...Nope, government is NOT like a business. Nor is it like a family. You can't use either economic model for government. Government doesn't produce goods for profit, government produces services to benefit the citizenry. To do so, it relies on tax money from you and me. When we feel like we are getting our money's worth, we grudgingly agree to pay those taxes without much complaint. So while government isn't a business, like a business, it is giving the consumer something they want. And don't kid yourself that government spending isn't a VERY necessary part of the economy. Cut the military by 20%, and you probably lose 20% of the jobs of private companies that are working under government contracts. And all those laid off people then go into the private job market, which is already saturated for good paying jobs like they had before. And when they can't get a job, they don't spend money. And when they don't spend money, the companies that used to provide them goods and services when they had money have to lay off workers.

Well, the chickens have come home to roost. All these years of "well, a little more regulation and a few more taxes won't hurt all these businesses" has finally added up. Like your notion that giving a few million dollars to Syria is no big deal since it's such a small amount. And the overly generous welfare state gone wild. It all adds up! When the govt is borrowing something like 45 cents of every dollar they spend year in and year out, all while continuing to build road blocks for businesses, disaster is all that lies ahead.

[skeeter]

term limits for everyone.

AMEN sir, AMEN.

The 28th Amendment to the Constitution is needed installing retroactive term limits for Congress and also retroactively abolishing the Congressional pension placing them all, former and current, on Social Security like the rest of us peons. ! Serving in Congress is just that...service..it's not meant to be a lifelong career filling your pockets at the public trough. If people can't recognize that fact with the current situation in D. C. we are truly doomed.

And don't anyone give me this lame excuse that term limits aren't needed because that's what the ballot box is for....wise up ! Incumbents have voted themselves such huge re-election advantages that any challenger has to completely prostitute themselves to special interest groups in order to raise necessary campaign funds and that starts the whole thing over again.

[Greasy B]

Question; when a segment of society lives in gated, walled communities, is it class warfare? When the gated, walled communities have armed guards is it class warfare?

[jeb]

Question; when a segment of society lives in gated, walled communities, is it class warfare? When the gated, walled communities have armed guards is it class warfare?

Of course not. You can live there, too.

It's like asking if it's wrong to make a good salary. If someone works hard, takes risk, takes care of their money and does well for themselves and their family, it is called the American Way and it is a large part of what made this country the great nation that it once was. Everyone has this same chance. There are countless stories of folks that have gone from rags to riches by working hard. Here is a great example of that. Sorry, it's a long video, but well worth the 30 minutes:

[Al Agnew]

Of course not. You can live there, too.

It's like asking if it's wrong to make a good salary. If someone works hard, takes risk, takes care of their money and does well for themselves and their family, it is called the American Way and it is a large part of what made this country the great nation that it once was. Everyone has this same chance. There are countless stories of folks that have gone from rags to riches by working hard. Here is a great example of that. Sorry, it's a long video, but well worth the 30 minutes:

Nope, if you think everybody has the same chance, you're delusional. The kid that grows up in the inner city tenements with no father and a drug-addicted mother does NOT have the same chance I did, and I grew up in a lower middle class family, let alone the kid who grows up in the suburbs with two parents and plenty of money. The kid that grows up in a trailer in the middle of the Ozarks with both parents on welfare does not have the same chance, either. The people in those rags to riches stories are exceptional people, because it takes an exceptional person to make it coming from "rags", while it only takes an average person to make it when they already have a head start. And it's not getting any easier to just be solidly in the middle class. A lot of middle class jobs have simply disappeared.

Yeah, poor people in America are not nearly as poor as poor people in third world countries. But the cost of living in America is also a lot more expensive than it is in those countries. And do we really want to see the same kind of poverty in America as I've seen in parts of Africa? How much can we cut welfare and still take care of all the people, including kids, who really need it to live?

[Wayne SW/MO]

I'm sure there is mass confusion and uncertainty in DC. The sequester has put them in pattern that is 180 degrees from normal. Normally they put in a budget, a request for money to run there operation. In order to be sure and have all the bases covered they request a "little" more and then insure that it is spent. Now they are going to have to reverse their thinking and make do with what they have.

The question weather they will actually make adjustment that everyone knows they can make, or will they cheat and make sure that any cuts will have a visible and ominous impact, or will they just cut out some pork, and make some legislatures angry, but forced to own up.

[hoglaw]

I think America would be better off with more lawyers. We need more laws to keep people in line, to keep America "lawful." To do the "right" thing. Therefore, the need for more attorneys is of utmost importance. Who will legislate, if not lawyers? Who will decide societal issues, if not the Supreme Court (lawyers)? Who will govern our towns, our cities (lawyers)? Who will monitor our professional sports leagues (lawyers)? Who will decide where we want to buried, and where our hard earned money will go (lawyers)? Surely, and luckily, the welfare of our children will be decided by, you guessed it, lawyers.

In sum, the answers to most societal and governmental issues can be solved with...lawyers.

We're in good hands my brothers. No gloom and doom in America. As long as we have our army of lawyers to fight fights, right wrongs, legislate and administrate, and generally, make work for themselves, and get paid, we should be happy.

It's the American way.

Well said JoeD...wait, you were being sarchastic weren't you? Right.... lawyers, including myself are responsible for the ills of the world. Your inbred hillbilly dumbass willfully ignorant logic may not be all of what's wrong with this country, but it's an awfully big part of it. I'll get to that in a minute. Personally I wish there were more lawyers in government. The Arkansas legislature used to be chocked full of lawyers. But over time, the demands of public service conflicted with the difficulties of supporting a law practice and now there are precious few. So few that the Arkansas Bar Association has to donate the services of lawyers to review bills that are passed by our dumbass representatives - elected by people just like JoeD. We need lawyers to try and point out the problems with things like banning abortions if a heartbeat is detectible, a mayor imposing martial law (See Helena - West Helena), and nearing triple digits of state constitutional amendments.

So let's get back to why JoeD's deliberately narrow and ignorant mindset is the fundamental root of problems in this country. Politics has to cater to too many voices, and the wealthiest ones bark the loudest. The citizenry is content to focus its attention on things that have little to no bearing on our current economic state of affairs. The looming debt crisis (and I don't say "the economy" as the DOW is nearing an all time high) should be on the forefront of everyone's mind. But instead, people like JoeD focus their attention on things like foriegn aid, illegal immigration, and my favorite - "makers" vs. "takers." For the most part, the criticisms espoused by the majority of morons are completely uninformed. The Obama administration has set records year after year for deportations. Deportation does not now and never has solved any of the problems posed by illegal immigration, but if you want an administration that boots illegals at record rates, then your guy is in office. "Foriegn aid" is a commonly misunderstood issue that is only a drop in the bucket...a fraction of a drop in the bucket that is the real problem. And the idea that millions upon millions of Americans are content to rely on government assistance in lieu of finding real work is not based in reality for the reasons previously articulated in this thread. There simply is not a crisis of urchins suckling at the government teet. Even if there were, medicaid, food stamps, unemployment benefits, the earned income tax credit, and "welfare" are not as substantial a problem as the military, medicare, and social security.

JoeD may begrudge me for getting an education, but the one thing I learned in my public finance economics class is that any attempt to "balance the budget" is futile unless you deal with the military, and the programs supported by payroll taxes (medicare and social security). The amount of money we spend on a standing military, particularly in light of the fact that this country will never ever ever ever be invaded or occupied, is staggering. We are financing occupations and operations that serve almost no purpose other than we started them so we need to finish them in a way that doesn't leave a worse mess than there was when we got into it in the first place. I think it's really cool that we have nuclear submarines around the world that can put a tomahawk in a window 1500 miles away at the drop of a hat. But the military has essentially become welfare at this point. It employs a tremendous number of people who would otherwise have to find work. I "support our troops" as much as the next guy and I hold any man or woman who put their life on the line in high regard, but it's time to realisticly assess this country's needs in the 21st century.

Social security was not intended to be the retirement program of the masses. That isn't why it was put into place, but that's what it has become. My father will be eligible for social security benefits soon and he sure as heck doesn't need them. But no one can take that stance and get elected because you old people vote like crazy. If you're 65 years old and you can't afford to retire without government assistance to cover your health insurance and give you walking around money, then you aren't ready to retire. If our economy doesn't collapse, then my generation will have to bear this burden so we might as well impose it now.

Medicare is the next big issue. Health care is too darn expensive. Private insurance companies bear a big part of the blame here as they are an unnecessary cost center between consumers and providers, but the root cause is the fundamental nature of modern medicine. Anyone who has any real interest in discussing this is certainly free to PM me or come fishing with me, but the bottom line is we have an over-supply of health care but government subsidization through medicare, medicaid as well as private subsidization through third party health insurance keeps the price up even though the demand doesn't necessitate the price dictated by the supply.

It is very easy to get lured into hot button topics like guns, immigrants, abortions, foriegners, etc. Most folks like JoeD are intelligent enough to understand the real issues, but choose not to because it's simply easier to point to these things as if they're the real problem. Al has hit it on the nose a number of times in this thread but he's just nicer than me. The real solutions are the ones no one wants to deal with and they are antithetical to the hard line stance of party politics. "Less government" is not the answer. De-regulation and less oversight has caused the taxpayers a tremendous amount of money only to enrich the shareholders of the big corporations, like myself. The answer is a fundamentally different government. A government that addresses the real issues in a common sense way. A government that surrounds itself with advisors and people who are smarter than those that govern (hopefully not too many of those advisors will be lawyers JoeD). But because of extremist idealogy, NPR, Fox News..whatever, that type of government can never get elected and stay elected.

In the meantime, I have enjoyed the meteoric rise of the DOW and S&P, and I am properly positioned to do even better off the correction that I believe is looming in the near future. I will continue to vote for the candidates who I think are intelligent enough to stop pandering and address real issues, but I don't hold out much hope for that. Oh, and JoeD is an idiot.

[bfishn]

e

...Get the govt out of the way of job creators...

Who are these job creators I keep hearing about?

I used to think the phrase referred to employers, but employers don't create jobs. Employers hire and fire to keep their workforce numerous enough to meet the demand for their goods or services efficiently. Demand slows, employers lay people off. Demand increases and they hire. For an employer to simply hire more people than necessary to meet sales would seem pretty foolish, even to a weak mind like mine.

For demand to rise, consumers have to be willing (and able) to spend more money than they are now. A good number of the folks I know simply don't have any extra money to spend, especially those that are laid off. My employer (construction) has laid off 29 just this year, and he won't be hiring until he has the need to. If he simply "created" 29 new jobs, we'd be out of business in a hurry.

The term "job creators" implies credit due for something wonderful that they alone can provide. I'd like to know who it is specifically I should be thankful to for my job, my employer, or the people that pay him, without whom he'd have never had a business to begin with?

(aside) It's worth mentioning that the source for 50% of our companiy's work for the last 4 years was... you got it... the government, specifically a VA hospital addition and a new school funded by that dreaded stimulus money that didn't do any good.