If You Think The Threat To Conservation Isn't Real...

[SpoonDog]

I met Noppadol Paothong (photographer for the Missouri Conservationist) at a TU meeting a couple years back. Despite his silly name I found him to be an exceptionally talented, intelligent, kind, patient, and courteous individual. I reckon a few folks on this forum could learn a lot from him. He makes about $38,500 a year according to the state- I'm not sure what MDC makes off the calendars, books, and other stuff featuring his artwork. The average MDC salary is around $50,000. The average Missouri salary (for all employees, not just state) is around $44,000. When we talk about the folks at the top, making $100,000+, we're talking about three individuals. When you consider practically all management-level biologists and above have advanced degrees, when you consider how many are nationally or internationally renowned experts in their field, and when you consider many could be making an additional $20,000 or more as private consultants- I'd argue we're getting a pretty good return on what we pay into the system.

Yeah, the elk were expensive- but I haven't seen them overrun the entire state, decimating crops and killing motorists. I have seen far more people visiting the Peck Ranch area now than previously, and if I were a hotel or campground or gas station or restaurant owner in the area, I'd be pretty happy with that. Yeah MDC logs, and for a bunch of different reasons- fire or weather salvage, research, forest stand or wildlife habitat improvement, etc. I won't pretend to know the ins-and-outs of MDC's timber ventures, but like Justin said- there's all sorts of reasons they do it, and I doubt it's a serious cash cow. Looking at the budget it seems to make up less than 2% of their income.

I absolutely agree MDC should take steps to be more transparent, accountable, and fiscally responsible- I just don't see how any of the proposed legislation accomplishes that. But I also think, on the whole, MDC does a pretty excellent job protecting our fish and wildlife resources. If you set out only looking for the negatives, the negatives are all you're ever gonna find- and I have to wonder if some of the outrage expressed regarding MDC doesn't stem from personal politics or biased perceptions.

[Justin Spencer]

1) I don't mind paying my part to participate in outdoor sports! Although it has become far more complicated than just buying a hunting/fishing combo that was hand printed with a real INK pen!

2) in the big scheme "scam" of things $97 million is a h@ll of a lot of money! It would almost pay off my mortgage:)

3) who really benefits from all of those beautiful TROUT swimming in lake taneycomo ? No trout no fisherman staying at the local resorts! And who actually paid for them? I have a $7 trout stamp that I never had to buy when I was a kid! Hmmmm....

4) and while I'm at it,,,,,,, don't ever,,,,,,, and I mean never forget to buy a boat ramp pass on a corp of engineers lake!!!! Unless you want to be officially deemed a criminal;-(

5) obviously there has to be some funding to operate any government agency, but WOW,,,,,, when does common sense come into play?????

Corp of engineers has nothing to do with MDC first off so take that up with them.

Tourism is a huge industry in Missouri and MDC plays a large role in it. Trout parks and stocked trout promote the tourism industry which helps resorts for sure, but this reaches further than you can imagine Clay. Tourism creates all kinds of jobs for people that would be on government assistance otherwise. In addition local restaurants and gas stations benefit, as well as all those along the route from the cities to these destinations. Bait and tackle dealers benefit, ice companies benefit and so on and so forth. The forests and fields provide a place for hunters who aren't fortunate enough to purchase land of their own, and these lands are managed in a way that success is there for the taking. Hunters coming to these areas provide a boost to the local economy of these areas as well. It is fine to get caught up in what is perceived as wasteful government spending, but in many cases government spending creates or supports many private businesses that otherwise would not exist. It is easy to say the government needs to tighten its' belt (and in many instances it does), but we must realize that when we cut government spending many times we also hurt businesses that are far removed from what we think of as being government related.

[Claybuster]

Corp of engineers has nothing to do with MDC first off so take that up with them.

Tourism is a huge industry in Missouri and MDC plays a large role in it. Trout parks and stocked trout promote the tourism industry which helps resorts for sure, but this reaches further than you can imagine Clay. Tourism creates all kinds of jobs for people that would be on government assistance otherwise. In addition local restaurants and gas stations benefit, as well as all those along the route from the cities to these destinations. Bait and tackle dealers benefit, ice companies benefit and so on and so forth. The forests and fields provide a place for hunters who aren't fortunate enough to purchase land of their own, and these lands are managed in a way that success is there for the taking. Hunters coming to these areas provide a boost to the local economy of these areas as well. It is fine to get caught up in what is perceived as wasteful government spending, but in many cases government spending creates or supports many private businesses that otherwise would not exist. It is easy to say the government needs to tighten its' belt (and in many instances it does), but we must realize that when we cut government spending many times we also hurt businesses that are far removed from what we think of as being government related.

Justin, you may have misunderstood my rant! And you seem to be a well spoken authority! Can you remember when FALL CREEK trout dock was a CAMPGROUND ? I do, and I liked it better as a campground! Tourism? Local restaurants ? Have you seen glorious Branson lately?

I do realize that the corp of engineers is not "affiliated" with MDC and I don't mind paying my part, but GEEZ, how many times do I have to pay to go fishing in my home state? How many different "tags" do I have to buy to hunt in my home state?

My point is....... Seems to me that if things were Simplified there would be a lot less wasteful SPENDING!

COMMON SENSE is what my parents were trying to teach in the great outdoors!

[Chief Grey Bear]

Justin, you may have misunderstood my rant! And you seem to be a well spoken authority! Can you remember when FALL CREEK trout dock was a CAMPGROUND ? I do, and I liked it better as a campground! Tourism? Local restaurants ? Have you seen glorious Branson lately?

I do realize that the corp of engineers is not "affiliated" with MDC and I don't mind paying my part, but GEEZ, how many times do I have to pay to go fishing in my home state? How many different "tags" do I have to buy to hunt in my home state?

My point is....... Seems to me that if things were Simplified there would be a lot less wasteful SPENDING!

COMMON SENSE is what my parents were trying to teach in the great outdoors!

Do you have any specific examples of wasteful spending by the MDC?

And if so, how was it specifically wasteful?

[Claybuster]

Do you have any specific examples of wasteful spending by the MDC?

And if so, how was it specifically wasteful?

You win, I surrender!

Peace

[Chief Grey Bear]

You win, I surrender!

Peace

No please. I would like to hear your legitimate points of wasteful spending and what is wasteful about it.

[Phil Lilley]

Justin, you may have misunderstood my rant! And you seem to be a well spoken authority! Can you remember when FALL CREEK trout dock was a CAMPGROUND ? I do, and I liked it better as a campground! Tourism? Local restaurants ? Have you seen glorious Branson lately?

I loved that old red wood dock at Fall Creek, but it basically fell apart. FC Campground was for sale in 1981 for a cool half mil. There was quite a bit of property on both sides of the creek. If I were to have bought it for that, I knew I would have to go in and built lodging units, condos or cabins or something. The campground wouldn't have paid for a 500k loan. Simple economics. And that's why FC has now condos and a big dock.

Whether we like it or not, change happens. A place like Branson, where lots of people like to go and do many things, changed- because people wanted to visit.

Now on the reverse, if you like the banks of Taneycomo reverting back to the way it was, look at the old Sun Valley and Riverlake resorts. The bank along Foggy River Rd where they've taken out quite a few houses and put the ground back to grass, no docks.

[Justin Spencer]

You win, I surrender!

Peace

Don't surrender, we all get frustrated when we think things are being managed improperly, but complaining about a government agency just to complain without backing it up is becoming all to common these days. I understand not wanting to have to get tags and licenses for everything you do, but it is much cheaper and less confusing than in many states. Look at all the deer zones in Kansas for example. The trout tag that you get is so you can keep the trout you catch, outside the trout parks if you want to release them you aren't required to buy the tag, if you want to keep trout think of it as buying the fish from the state who produced them for you to catch and release, $7 will get you a pound or two at the store so that is a pretty cheap for as many trout as you can legally take home for an entire year. The fact is there are more people in the world now and many still want to enjoy the outdoors, this leads to industries being created to accommodate these people (capitalism), sure it seems harder and harder to find "secret places" but that is because there are too many people in the world. Without MDC helping create great outdoor opportunities for the public, hunting would be reserved for the rich or for those farmers who already have land to hunt on. Much of this land would be leased to those willing to pay to have a good place to hunt like it is in Kansas where they have very little state owned land. I have worked for KDWP and can tell you that they have very little to work with and while they do the best they can, the outdoor opportunities in Kansas pale in comparison to those in Missouri, and we have MDC and the forsight of the public passing the 1/8 cent sales tax to thank for it.

[Terrierman]

Justin, you may have misunderstood my rant! And you seem to be a well spoken authority! Can you remember when FALL CREEK trout dock was a CAMPGROUND ? I do, and I liked it better as a campground! Tourism? Local restaurants ? Have you seen glorious Branson lately?

I do realize that the corp of engineers is not "affiliated" with MDC and I don't mind paying my part, but GEEZ, how many times do I have to pay to go fishing in my home state? How many different "tags" do I have to buy to hunt in my home state?

My point is....... Seems to me that if things were Simplified there would be a lot less wasteful SPENDING!

COMMON SENSE is what my parents were trying to teach in the great outdoors!

Any time you don't like what someone else is doing with their property you should buy it and do what you think is the right thing. Last time I looked this country still had a few freedoms and one of those relates to doing what you want with a piece of property so long as it's within Federal, State and local requirements.

Also remember, there are a few more of us around now than when we were kids. That right there is the main reason we see so many changes a lot of us wish weren't happening. Edit - Justin beat me to that point.

[ness]

It's not as pitiful in Kansas as you may think Justin. There are a million+ acres of Walk-In Hunting available to anybody who can, well, walk. There are a number of reservoirs that provide fishing opportunities, and are surrounded by public land. And of course, as I'm sure you know as a native Kansan, it is teeming with the King of Upland Birds -- the wily, noble and delicious pheasant.

MO with its hundreds of conservation areas, cool-water streams, world famous reservoirs, Ozark topography and the Baldknobbers are undeniably awful special though.