Fishing Guides - Making money on tax dollars?

[Old plug]

Your welcome

[Clay Goforth]

Bottom line, most of the trout fisheries are put and take systems. Designed to be that way and much of the reason was to create an attraction and develop an economy around them.

If the person hiring the guide buys a license, which they have to, they are entitled to keep the daily limit of fish that the license affords them. They can do that with or without a guide. I would argue that guides help the economy around the fishing industry much more than they benefit from it. What happens if a bunch of snow birds come down for a weekend of awesome fishing on the White River in Arkansas and get skunked? Do they ever come back? Do they tell all of their friends about the terrible trip they had and discourage others from coming down? Possibly.

Let's say, in turn, 5 guys come down and they hire a guide. Guide puts them on fish and they catch the dickens out of them, each keeping their daily limit (mind you, the possession or carry limit is 2 day limit) of 5. Fish for three days, each keep 10 fish to take home, paid the guide $400 a day (a guide that lives in the area and will spend that money in the local economy), paid for their lodging, ate out and spent time in local restaurants, etc. And the big kicker, they come back and do it again year after year. The next year, it is 8 guys, and the following year it is 12. The dollars spent increases, the local economy benefits.

Tag on top of that the guide license as well as the annual fishing license for the guide, all of the gear purchased in the local economy and you have much greater tax benefits for the local area and the state than the cost for a regenerative commodity like a fish.

I know, I am feeding the troll. Still a good discussion.

[dtrs5kprs]

I believe your full of BS

Well said Plug.

[ozark trout fisher]

Bottom line, most of the trout fisheries are put and take systems. Designed to be that way and much of the reason was to create an attraction and develop an economy around them.

If the person hiring the guide buys a license, which they have to, they are entitled to keep the daily limit of fish that the license affords them. They can do that with or without a guide. I would argue that guides help the economy around the fishing industry much more than they benefit from it. What happens if a bunch of snow birds come down for a weekend of awesome fishing on the White River in Arkansas and get skunked? Do they ever come back? Do they tell all of their friends about the terrible trip they had and discourage others from coming down? Possibly.

Let's say, in turn, 5 guys come down and they hire a guide. Guide puts them on fish and they catch the dickens out of them, each keeping their daily limit (mind you, the possession or carry limit is 2 day limit) of 5. Fish for three days, each keep 10 fish to take home, paid the guide $400 a day (a guide that lives in the area and will spend that money in the local economy), paid for their lodging, ate out and spent time in local restaurants, etc. And the big kicker, they come back and do it again year after year. The next year, it is 8 guys, and the following year it is 12. The dollars spent increases, the local economy benefits.

Tag on top of that the guide license as well as the annual fishing license for the guide, all of the gear purchased in the local economy and you have much greater tax benefits for the local area and the state than the cost for a regenerative commodity like a fish.

I know, I am feeding the troll. Still a good discussion.

Here's one issue surrounding the "help them get their limit" message that isn't being said but is a really pervasive issue. On guide trips in The Old Days when I had every intention of keeping fish (and sometimes a limit) I almost invariably had to explain to the guide that I wasn't cool with the idea of "pooling limits". Often as not I got a glance in return about the same as if I'd just told them I arrived at the guide shop in a space-ship.

I'm not accusing you (I don't even know if you're a guide or not) of this, but it's something worth bringing up if we're going to discuss this.

If you are going to market yourself as getting clients a limit catch, fine, but make sure it's their limit, and not the daily limit multiplied by the number of people in the boat. It seems to be an unfortunately well accepted practice in many areas...but it's poaching.

[Clay Goforth]

Here's one issue surrounding the "help them get their your limit" message that isn't being said but is a really pervasive issue. On guide trips in The Old Days when I had every intention of keeping fish (and sometimes a limit) I almost invariably had to explain to the guide that I wasn't cool with the idea of "pooling limits". Often as not I got a glance in return about the same as if I'd just told them I arrived at the guide shop in space-ship.

I'm not accusing you (I don't even know if you're a guide or not) of this, but it's something worth bringing up if we're going to discuss this.

If you are going to market yourself as getting clients a limit catch, fine, but make sure it's their limit, and not the daily limit multiplied by the number of people in the boat.

I think I talked about the guide putting people on fish, not necessarily adding fish to the client's bag. I have guided in the past and still have a license just because I take so many people fishing that I don't want there to ever be a question about my legality but that is beside the point. I understand what you are saying completely. Any guide worth their weight will be able to put people on fish and teach them enough about it to get them their own 5 fish limit, so I completely agree with you.

There are two situations, however, that I admittedly contributed to the client's "limit." First was on a trip where I was responsible for a shore lunch of 15 people. That day, there were 8 units of water on the White below Bull Shoals. I had three boats running, each with three plus the guide. Fishing was TOUGH. Normally, when I had to recruit other guides to assist, I had strict rules (and most do) about the guide not fishing but on this day, I had to have them with lines in the water just to make sure we picked up every fish willing to eat so that we would have enough for a shore lunch, not even a 5 fish limit. I wasn't worth my weight that day. Again, it was really tough fishing.

The second situation was when I had young kids in the boat. I would have them with a line in the water and then I would have one as well. If I hooked a fish, the rod was handed off to the young one to fight and bring in. If that makes me a bad guide, I guess I'll accept the title.

[dtrs5kprs]

The second situation was when I had young kids in the boat. I would have them with a line in the water and then I would have one as well. If I hooked a fish, the rod was handed off to the young one to fight and bring in. If that makes me a bad guide, I guess I'll accept the title.

That is exactly what a guide should do. Well done.

[Ham]

I know, I am feeding the troll. Still a good discussion.

I like my discussions better without a troll starting them though.

[ozark trout fisher]

I think I talked about the guide putting people on fish, not necessarily adding fish to the client's bag. I have guided in the past and still have a license just because I take so many people fishing that I don't want there to ever be a question about my legality but that is beside the point. I understand what you are saying completely. Any guide worth their weight will be able to put people on fish and teach them enough about it to get them their own 5 fish limit, so I completely agree with you.

There are two situations, however, that I admittedly contributed to the client's "limit." First was on a trip where I was responsible for a shore lunch of 15 people. That day, there were 8 units of water on the White below Bull Shoals. I had three boats running, each with three plus the guide. Fishing was TOUGH. Normally, when I had to recruit other guides to assist, I had strict rules (and most do) about the guide not fishing but on this day, I had to have them with lines in the water just to make sure we picked up every fish willing to eat so that we would have enough for a shore lunch, not even a 5 fish limit. I wasn't worth my weight that day. Again, it was really tough fishing.

The second situation was when I had young kids in the boat. I would have them with a line in the water and then I would have one as well. If I hooked a fish, the rod was handed off to the young one to fight and bring in. If that makes me a bad guide, I guess I'll accept the title.

None of what you're talking about is the type of "cheating" I'm referring to. I have no problem with the guide fishing if it's okay with the client. If there is a law regarding that I've sure as heck not seen it. And I certainly don't have a problem with you helping a young client have success when it otherwise wouldn't be possible. That's just being a good guide.

What I mean is this:A lot of guides (again, it doesn't sound like you) will see three clients in the boat, and that means a total of 15 fish end up in the livewell. And it doesn't matter who catches them, only that the total=15. Based on my limited experience, that tends to be a somewhat accepted practice, but it's illegal if any one angler has more than 5 they caught in there. Are you going to get caught doing that? It's extremely unlikely. But it still rubs me the wrong way. And that kind of behavior is why I always have my concerns when I see a line on a guide's website like "Limit catches, or your money back."

[Ham]

on the White River, 15 in the livewell in that situation would take about an hour most days. The clients should be able to handle that on their own. I think Great Blue Herons eat about 5 trout a day. Maybe that's how they set the limit.

[Feathers and Fins]

OTF your bringing up ( Legal v Illegal activities ) just like the OP kept bringing up ( Tax evasion ). A law abiding guide will not break either law a illegal guide will. It is not worth it for a guide to do it as at least in AR a violation is double points for a Guide and that quickly will kill is business he has tried to build up, plus with reciprocation revocation laws it means he loses the his fishing license and hunting in numerous states. The penalties are just not worth it one bit.

If a "Guide" hands off a rod to an angler then that angler who then catches the fish is the one who is in position of that fish by law (Same as a father would do for a son or daughter). Whenever I have people on the boat with me I use Zip-ties to distinguish who's fish is who's to avoid pooling. If a person wishes to practice CPR after that is fine but I will never allow more than the legal limit on my boat and no angler guide or not should.

Its all about staying within the law, we can hash out all the illegal activities under the sun but still comes back to the morals and ethics of the fisherman.