This kinda makes me mad

[awhuber]

LAD/ Pioneer forest own a lot of the land along the current river as mentioned Chalk bluff also cave spring (that is why it is not closed due to wns) also all the land from round spring down past big creek. The land does have a scenic easement on it.

I've said a couple of times it's owned by the L-A-D Foundation, and formerly Leo Drey, who just recently passed. As they own a pretty massive chunk of the hills around the Current River (we are talking about hundreds of thousands of acres) you definitely need to understand how they operate to have a decent grasp on how that whole chunk of the Ozarks is managed. And I can tell you from experience hiking around back there that they do a really good job, on par with any of the state and federal agencies around here.

[joeD]

It is quite simple fellas. Busting miscreants is bad business. Let's review:

1. Local law enforcement generally knows who the sh^^ disturbers are. However, unless there is a capital crime (murder, rape, armed robbery etc) it isn't worth their time busting people who are most likely neighbors and acquaintances.

2. Local officials have no desire to confront problems that city folk bring to their attention.

3. Local officials are local officials because they don't stir the proverbial crime pot, Land owners and old county families make sure of that.

4. State government does not want to interfere, because it would create work for them, and interfere and interrupt the friendly and effective narrative they perpetuate on a passive public that just wants to hear positive news.

5. As I've said before, for some reason, the State of Missouri is afraid of a white, rural, under educated, over valued, and troublesome population that does nothing positive for civilized society.

[Al Agnew]

It is quite simple fellas. Busting miscreants is bad business. Let's review:

1. Local law enforcement generally knows who the sh^^ disturbers are. However, unless there is a capital crime (murder, rape, armed robbery etc) it isn't worth their time busting people who are most likely neighbors and acquaintances.

2. Local officials have no desire to confront problems that city folk bring to their attention.

3. Local officials are local officials because they don't stir the proverbial crime pot, Land owners and old county families make sure of that.

4. State government does not want to interfere, because it would create work for them, and interfere and interrupt the friendly and effective narrative they perpetuate on a passive public that just wants to hear positive news.

5. As I've said before, for some reason, the State of Missouri is afraid of a white, rural, under educated, over valued, and troublesome population that does nothing positive for civilized society.

Unfortunately, I think you're right on almost all of this. Don't get me wrong...there are a lot of very good people that are natives of these rural Ozark counties. But there is a subset of people who are exactly what you described in number 5. And for some reason, those people, while perhaps a minority in themselves, have the sympathies of a lot of other people who wouldn't do those kind of things themselves. And, because they are basically lawless, they can also intimidate those who WOULD oppose them and turn them in. I know people who have had their own property vandalized and have been intimidated when they tried to work to put a stop to things like poaching and vandalism on public land.

It's also a matter of people just going feral when they get out and away from likely consequences of their actions. These are remote places that are almost never patrolled by anybody, and that gives these rotten excuses for human beings all the license they need to be as destructive as they wish. There was a time when you had to work to get back away from anybody who might discourage you from doing something despicable; now all you need is an ATV, gas, and a trail that nobody is policing.

[mjk86]

Hillbillies being hillbillies oh how I loathe humans sometimes!

[MOPanfisher]

I will say that the better description than hillbilly is white trash. There are white trash at every level of income and education. Some of the most protective landowners are hillbillirs, some of the most destructive are wealthy and educated who bough some property to play on and aren't really concerned with any damage done to the resource as long as they have their piece of the pie.

[oneshot]

Hillbillies being hillbillies oh how I loathe humans sometimes!

For the most part living in this area most my 60+ years it has been people not just kids from Cities like St. Louis and Kansas City on weekends doing most the destruction. They do the same here until Law Enforcement cracks down.

oneshot

[ozark trout fisher]

I really try to stay away from blaming this stuff on either the locals or the city folks exclusively (as I don't qualify as a member of neither subset myself.) I've seen plenty of irresponsible (or worse) behavior from both to conclude that it doesn't seem to matter much. I just blame it on the idiots, from whatever zip code.

[SpoonDog]

For the most part living in this area most my 60+ years it has been people not just kids from Cities like St. Louis and Kansas City on weekends doing most the destruction. They do the same here until Law Enforcement cracks down.

oneshot

I have no interest in arguing whether the urban or rural demographic contributes more to what we see on the rivers. But I can't tell you the number of sobriety checkpoints I'd run across on Highway 19 while Camp Zoe was in operation. I haven't run into a single one since it closed, though. And it always seems like the folks in outfitter canoes are more likely to be checked on the middle Current and 11 Point than the folks in private canoes, kayaks, or jon boats- though I've seen some awfully toasted folks in all of them.

I've seen information on this vandalism from the Salem article linked above as well as the River Hills Traveler. I've seen nothing from local law enforcement or county officials, which I find odd given Pioneer is one of the largest landowners, tax payers, and economic drivers in the region. Would that be the case if Pioneer were based in Eminence instead of St. Louis? Given what I've seen in this and other instances, I have to wonder whether there's some double standard- law enforcement seems pretty vigilant when the threat comes from outside their community, but they really seem to drag their feet when it comes to investigating $#@!-disturbers within the region.

[Al Agnew]

There is no doubt that visiting recreationists do a lot of bad stuff along the rivers, but for the most part it involves littering, with a bit of trespassing and fence destruction once in a while. Most visitors don't know the obscure trails and roads that give the idiots on ATVs access to the more remote locations, where they feel like they can do whatever they please without somebody looking over their shoulder. So yes, both groups can have their bad apples, but I'd be willing to bet that most of the vandalism and poaching in remote locations are done by locals.

[ozark trout fisher]

There is no doubt that visiting recreationists do a lot of bad stuff along the rivers, but for the most part it involves littering, with a bit of trespassing and fence destruction once in a while. Most visitors don't know the obscure trails and roads that give the idiots on ATVs access to the more remote locations, where they feel like they can do whatever they please without somebody looking over their shoulder. So yes, both groups can have their bad apples, but I'd be willing to bet that most of the vandalism and poaching in remote locations are done by locals.

I think a better question is, does it matter, and if so, why? Frankly, I couldn't care less who is doing this. I only care that it's happening and that the folks responsible are brought to justice, which, given the exceedingly remote locations of these alleged crimes, seems depressingly unlikely at this point.

I just don't know that blaming poaching/habitat destruction on one demographic subset does anything besides causing further division amongst those who could otherwise be allies. That's why I'm not willing to take part in that. It's just in no way constructive. Bring the folks responsible to justice and I'll leave the larger societal/cultural questions to people who are smarter and more tactful than me.