Larry Dablemont Article

[MOPanfisher]

3 hours ago, fishinwrench said:

Surely your memory is good enough that you can just brief me?  😊

FW, my memory isn't good enough to even brief you on what I had for lunch.  Follow him on his website and you can see all his articles.  You will at least get his side of things.

Here is a fun one though.

http://eldoradospringsmo.com/letters-to-the-editor/response-to-larry-dablemonts-fiction-column-of-the-week/

[Chief Grey Bear]

So wrench understands, Brandon is with the Conservation Federation of Missouri not the MDC.

[MOPanfisher]

I liked mr. Butlers responses.  He doesn't work for a public agency and is the director of the CFM, and he was specifically called out in the article.  Thus he had absolutely no issues in taking on the ridiculous claims made in the original article.  Sadly there are a LOT of folks who read such things and buy it lock stock and barrel.  I see their comments on MDC Web pages.  MDC will almost never directly comment back, but simply post links to information for readers to read themselves.  Occasionally just occasionally I see a response back that you know had to result in a mild reprimand to their webmaster, followed by buying them lunch.  

I freely admit that I tend to fall into the "if in doubt side with the MDC" group, somethings I have my doubts about, somethings I simply disagree with but again knowing several Agents, Biologists etc., and know their dedication to the resources and also know they have restrictions and guidelines they have to follow again well.

[MoCarp]

2 hours ago, MOPanfisher said:

FW, my memory isn't good enough to even brief you on what I had for lunch.  Follow him on his website and you can see all his articles.  You will at least get his side of things.

Here is a fun one though.

http://eldoradospringsmo.com/letters-to-the-editor/response-to-larry-dablemonts-fiction-column-of-the-week/

Quote

But Donald Hill, owner of a 1,300-acre hunting preserve in Gasconade County, said he believes the commission is trying to close down his operationand others like it.

“I’m numb. Its going to put a lot of farmers out of business,” said Hill, who was one of the plaintiffs in the case.

 

On his farm near Bland, Hill has an estimated 800 deer in hunting and breeding facilities. “We’ve invested millions of dollars in Missouri,” Hill said.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/missouri-supreme-court-shoots-down-captive-deer-hunting-operations/article_8eda4801-424c-5a11-83e2-bacca78bfd72.html

the retort to LD  in link makes you wonder, I'd bet a great deal is spent for people to come shoot Mr Hills high fence herd....not just $225..LD has a point

"10. “Trophy hunters from out of state pay a tremendous amount to shoot a deer in Missouri with big antlers, and turn the meat over to be eaten by the poor.”

Hunters from out of state pay $225 to hunt a buck. That is about half of what they pay in Illinois, Iowa or Kansas."

 

 

[tjm]

If  LD addressed his fiction to the captive cervid industry mocarp, you could argue that he has a point, I don't doubt that pen hunters pay more than wild hunters but I don't think those $millions referenced actually  go to any state agency.  Any nonresident hunter can hunt for a Mo. whitetail trophy for $225.  The owners of captive cervids actually sell the pen raised  deer not the MDC.

I don't guess I ever heard of Mr LD before, but the stuff quoted in this thread puts him in the "there he goes again"  & "ignore him, maybe he'll quit" categories. I wonder that his ravings are printed, if they are? maybe all on the web?

Hunting hogs, or as the USDA does coyotes,  by air is about the least effective and most expensive control method there is by all the reports I've read yet it is still used often. I'd  guess there is some strong support of aerial gunning by people that control the funding or it would stop. The main justification for the government (state or federal) killing nuisance animals on private land  is that they may use that land as a breeding factory and they or their offspring will eventually be on public land. USDA often charges for their services, I'm not certain that they always do.  Trapping and night vision shooting over bait are by far the most productive control by professional private operators. Snaring is a very effective feral hog control in some states, but because of stray dog protection laws snares cannot be used in MO.

edit afterthought) The captive cervid  growers actually tried to get their "deer" declared  domestic livestock a few years ago, so that MoDept of Ag would regulate them rather than MDC . I wonder if a domestic rack  could qualify as a trophy deer? 

[MOPanfisher]

Aerial gunning in the right circumstances is incredibly effective, a sound flushed out into open can be wiped out completely. Unfortunately much of the area in central MO doesn't lend itself well to aerial gunning for a variety of reasons from topography to a surplus of public access roads that can't be controlled.  What they can see from the air is damage from groups of hogs, and then the trappers take their map and go back out by vehicle to visit the landowners to seek permission to check for damage and possibly trapping.

MDC and USDA will not randomly fly private property to shoot hogs, they require the landowner to provide permission, not that the occasional chase hasn't ended on the wrong piece of property.

[MoCarp]

16 hours ago, tjm said:

If  LD addressed his fiction to the captive cervid industry mocarp, you could argue that he has a point, I don't doubt that pen hunters pay more than wild hunters but I don't think those $millions referenced actually  go to any state agency.  Any nonresident hunter can hunt for a Mo. whitetail trophy for $225.  The owners of captive cervids actually sell the pen raised  deer not the MDC.

perhaps you are right , but my take on what LD was saying was that the MDC was trying to protect the deer hunting industry by sugar coating the CWD threat, the careers of many in the MDC are contingent on deer hunting being a extremely popular past time, and the dangers of even touching an infected deer could kill you...if true that could crush the deer hunting industry (gun /bow/clothingfeeders etc/sales) and he insinuated that people like Bass pro shops influences MDC dogma right or wrongly, he has some points that shouldn't be dismissed at face value and worthy of a closer look.

to what extent the private sector has influence over State fish/wildlife decisions is debatable. IMHO the state SHOULD listen to economic concerns...its not mutually exclusive to have both, its not the state preserve commission but CONSERVATION or the WISE use of the resource, and the includes the cutting of timber as a renewable resource.

does corruption occur? sure... but to what extent? from my experiences the MDC and AGFC has been honorable 99% of the time and compared to most states do a great job

 

[tjm]

The pen deer folks will tell you the MDC is over selling CWD and that it is harmless and has always been here, I've read their arguments. I'm not overly educated and not very good with computers and I managed to find lots of scientific stuff about CWD and its kindred Transmissible spongiform encephalopathies TSE:  Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease,  Kuru,  scrapie,  bovine spongiform encephalopathy, Transmissible mink encephalopathy, Feline spongiform encephalopathy etc.  Anyone can if they will spend an hour trying to.  If Dablemont can't and can't show such references as sources, then he is a blubbering idiot and not worth this conversation.

Scrapie in sheep has been around since history started and we don't get goofy about eating mutton or lamb or wearing wool. Scrapie is very likely the origin of CWD, sheep and deer in same pen at research facility and then the deer released back into the wild... But because of the wild cow disease and panic a few years ago there is a belief that spongiform encephlopathy might jump from cervids to humans  and it is a possibility, thus the  concern. All those years of scrapie not jumping to humans is the basis for statements that CWD should not be of concern. My observation, MDC would rather err on the side of caution than get blamed later for caving in to the deer farmers.

If you think MDC and AFGC compare favorably with any other state's fish and game,  you are correct.  Most other states depend on politics in all game and fish policies rather than science.

o, and the good news is the most recent studies seem to show CWD can be transmitted even by grass growing from dirt that was contaminated by urine or feces as much as 20-30 years later, prions don't die in fire or rain  or  chemical application. Not much can be done except watch and study and destroy deer, for now.

 

[jdmidwest]

I think I saw a glimmer of hope in the CWD problem.  Someone figured out that feeding the deer un naturally at feeders was bringing them into a concentrated area.  Then the disease is passed along.  Feeding deer helps the weak bad genetics that would get weeded out by death or predators or passing disease along by keeping the sick ones alive longer.

But, will they eliminate the deer feeder problem?

[MOPanfisher]

It is ironic that one of the ways to help slow the spread of CWD is to ban deer feeders, however if you are in a quarantine zone you get to bait them so you can shoot them.  I talked with one of the biologists about the fact that CWD has been identified for more than 30 years, if it was as devastating as feared there shouldn't be any deer left in NW Colorado, Sw Wisconson, or north missouri.  There must be some natural resistance to it in the overall population, if not then they are all going to die.