tjm

Twern't so many saying "thank you" in 1970, whole lot more would rather harass and degrade.

They look at all the stuff found next to the rock, in the same layer of sediment-plant or animal matter and just say that if the seeds date xxyears ago then all the things in that layer of mud are that age.

This came up on another forum years back and pertained both fishing and hunting guides/outfitters- the guides and out fitters on the forum included grizzly bear to southern ducks and AK to FL; salmon to trout to bonefish and the consensus was what you pay the outfitter or salt Captain was his and the guide that did the work was often dependent on tips-in the case of pack in hunts that included tips for cook and tips for wrangler separate and in addition to guide- The suggestions were $100-$300 per day per man involved- I have zero experience on either side of the deal, but I said that if you pay an outfitter for a service that the service was inclusive of all and I got all kinds of flak. I asked if those guides tipped the plumber $100 above the cost of a repair or if they tipped the doctor $100 when they got a shot and they all said guiding depended on tips- they seemed to agree that if you did not tip them on the first day you would get poor service on subsequent days. In the case of shared hunts or fishing trips they expected the $100/day from each in addition to the contracted price. I guess that if you can't toss out tips equal to the trip cost, you should not be pissin money away on guided trips.

I suspect that if they stocked parr or fingerlings the fish might distribute throughout the river better, but then the fish would take several years to become more than dinks, if they ever did. How cool is the Niangua? In the 50s mostly or up to the 70s? Growth is largely a factor of temperature, I've read. To stock the entirety of a stream there would have to an all weather roadway adjacent to the entire stream, that might detract from the stream-side experience. It's been decades since I've been up there and then I was in the park only, but I have thought that would be a great smallmouth stream. Didn't they run some polls years ago about what the trout anglers wanted, bigger fish or more fish? They are probably managing the put according to the desires of the takers. Fishery management is usually about happy consumers, often at the expense of nature.

I believe that's true. My point is if a non-native fish is introduced as a recreational "put and take" fishery, it needs no management besides putting them in and taking them out. Trout grow (like swine) much faster in confinement than in the wild and if large fish are wanted then confine them until they reach the desired size. Study of hatchery trout and wild reared trout show 20g/year wild growth compared to 500g/year in confinement.

If trout are naturalized (breeding in stream) why are they still stocking it at all? Are carp also naturalized there? are they managing them? I have a bit of a problem with intensive stream management for the benefit of exotics. Tailwaters are ruined for our native species and require intensive input to maintain a fishery of a sort, the trout parks are what they are, but that stream could support suckers and bullhead, maybe.

Are trout native or natural in the Niangua River?

No doubt. Especially true of trout, and not only size but numbers available.

Try g beaver, or w beaver, or s beaver per instructions on linked site.

Probably the first thing I really learned about flyfishing. And besides moving that sharp away from my tender hands this allows almost two rod lengths of leader/line outside the guides, ready to cast at the next hole. Leaders need to fit the circumstance, imo. Different water and flies may make one leader better than another. In Ozark streams my over all leader may run from ~5' to ~8-9' depending on how deep the water is-using weighted flies and floating line a short leader won't let the flies sink much , but where I used to fish still water trout with #24s I've found the 12'-16' leader allows a smaller splashdown. My standard at RRSP is ~6' to 5X and in the local SMB stream ~6' to 8#. If I were using a sinking line the leader might be 4' to keep the fly down where the line is. In stream fishing I think splashdown is often a plus. " for my style of fishing" - there is the key: what you do and the kind of water you are doing it on. Recently on another thread it was stated that in Taneycomo you could need 12' of leader between the jig and the corkie, and I presume some leader between the corkie and the line; when I think about that rig I am astonished that it can be cast at all, at all. Yet I have rollcast many times with 12' of knotted leader down to 8-9X. The taper also lends to longer leaders when small tippets are desired, look at the leaders Joe Brooks advocated- compound tapers stepping down in length and diameter of material .002" at a time to a 4-6" mid section then going to longer sections as the diameter gets smaller out to a ~30" tippet, irrc JB listed leaders of 16' over all for some applications. JB influenced many fly men that eventually wrote books of their own. I'd also guess (guess because I have no experience with UL fly line) that when using 5wt and smaller the leaders might need to be shorter to match the line. Most of the leader recipes that I recall started with .021" or .023" butt sections and reduce at .002" (most store bought leaders seem even larger at the butt, to me) I have found that for 6-7 lines .017" butt works better for me, thus taking one or two sections out of the taper. (if forced to buy a leader I cut the butt off a foot or two) Based on this, I'd think a 2wt might only need 3' of leader & tippet? There is a method of nymphing that only uses leader (20'?)- it is said to prevent drag by keeping the line off the water- I understand this used in international competitions. Humphrey's method of using Cobra in place of line is somewhat similar, I think.

1=no & no 2= no 3=no 4=1 5=1 If you are managing a water of any kind it should be managed to the exclusion of invasive species regardless of how introduced. Popularity and politics should not be the determining factor in maintaining wild species or their habitat. Carp are essentially an invasive domesticated species introduced to the wild to the detriment of the fisheries and as such should be extirpated.

Last couple times I bought 6X I got FrogHair, (copolymer) it may be the best tippet that Ive used in strength to diameter and knot holding, or maybe I had a good day. I build my own leaders and rebuild them as conditions or size fly calls for, some pretty complex Joe Brooks compound taper recipe leaders still live in my leader wallet, though my leaders have become more simple over time I still may have 4-6 diameters in some leaders, so I'm not looking at just tippet material usually. For those interested Fly Fisherman did an article a few years ago on how various brands compare, http://www.flyfisherman.com/gear-accessories/fly-tying-materials-gear-and-accessories/2012-tippet-shootout/

Maybe it doesn't stretch? Even steel gets smaller cross section as it stretches. Al the Maxima line and tippet are the same as far as eye, touch and mic can tell. Most of my leaders come off the one shot spools. I have several times compared the spooled line with the tippet spools. People always say that Maxima under marks their (as if it is terrible thing to do) line so that in tests it break at higher loads than other lines, probably so and that would make it nearer to Rio and Orvis in a diameter /strength comparison. I find that if I use the same brand from 20# to 2# the knots and especially the turnover work better than if I switch brands at some point in the taper. Often in the same diameter one brand is enough stiffer or softer as to spoil a knot or cause a hinge. If Rio or Orvis made all diameters from ,004" through .025" I'd maybe change brands. I have always gone by diameter, that's the reason for Xs. Pounds on label are meaningless once we tie the first knot anyway.

Yes that can happen if belted and jacketed. I have filled my waders a few times and seen a couple other guys fill theirs also. I can swim with chest waders completely full, water inside your waders weighs the same as water outside your waders and the only thing pulling my down was the same wader weight that was pulling me down before I took the plunge; I was happy to discover this because I had heard the myth about all that water in the waders pulling me under and some what believed it, even if it didn't make sense.

Call Gene and ask for details. We need to know!

Pictures I've seen of that stream it does look like a challenge. It wants a 6' rod and 12' leader me thinks. Places like that the trout (and other fish) flee from any shadow that passes over. I figure that's because fish eating birds make moving shadows. Any wading I'd do in an upstream direction and only count on one cast per hole. It sounds like you had a nice day and learned what a bleeding shiner looks like, so you can mark that off your life list. A couple other little fish are similar, but as John said the vertical band next the gill cover ; lipstick and a collar define this one.

I was under the impression that paddle craft had to follow sail lights or torch/lantern on board by law, but that could have been a state requirement where I used to live, or maybe it was rowed boats and not paddled. I can.t remember. Something that was always aboard just like PFDs. Dinky little led flash lights that sell for buck and fit in you watch pocket would save your life. It's true you could run into a log or other debris, but not so much chance of that resulting in manslaughter., I've seen power boats on Grand with no lights showing and I supposed there was no water patrol active.

Are nav lights required by law or just a suggestion ?

Some people eat rattlesnakes, probably other snakes as well, so that argument is out. J walkers are just as bad also, they are law breakers as well. And the guy that takes his pickup head lights out and switches them for LED is breaking Federal laws. We could make a long list of people who are just as bad and even worse, but should we throw stones? I think it's pretty ignorant of Leopold to presume he knows what constitutes ignorance. Guy with a foreign name like that couldn't begin to know how ignorant Americans can be if they try. Wrench, that won't work, I seen it said and the guy was just ignorant the next day.

Fine enough.

For sure the line becomes less important as the current and water color increase. I frequently use ~5# stuff for trout on flies at RRSP . The advantage of lighter lines on spinning rods, for me was in the ability to cast small light lures.

Long time ago I did some testing of that in a super clear 8 acre spring fed pond with larger stocked trout. At the time all the mono was about twice as big for the test as it is now and quite a lot stiffer, or so my memory tells me. (iirc, my 8X was 1/2# test, 7X 3/4#) Test was using red worms, night crawlers and shiners for baits- two spinning rods lined with 6# test and 10' of different sized leaders varying from 10# down the 1# test, cast ~4'-5' apart and rigged identically except the leader. Results went like: 10# &10# catches were random as to which rod was hit on, 10# and 8,6, 4, 2. 1# the lighter line received nearly all the hits, regardless if the baits were the same or not. as I reduced line diameters the results indicated the same equal sized lines=random as to which was hit and with unequal lines the smaller line received nearly all hits. Many times in the clear water I could watch as the trout investigated the bait and then took one. I did this on many outings over the two or three months that trout were available and concluded that trout could see even the 1# test as well as they could the 10# and that it put them off slightly, but that worm was more important than leader. A night crawler was preferred over a red worm most of the time and minnows did better with split shots than unweighted. I ended by rigging my rods with 4# test for greater casting distance than the 6# and fewer break offs than the 2#. Given the improvements in line quality, if I was rigging a spinning rod today for strictly trout I'd go with Maxima 3#. But for mixed fishing would spool it with 6-8# test. If I think that smaller line is needed I can tie on 2' of tippet material. (as part of that experiment I also shortened the leaders and 24"-36" worked best for me) Some experimenting I did with suckers makes me think they are a lot more shy than trout and much faster at spitting out any thing that tastes wrong.

When I tied them to fish in New England there were no beads and the hooks were standard dry fly hooks and small, probably wouldn't work over there. The ones still left in my box appear to be 22s & 24s, up eye, tied around the bend, silver wire & what Universal Vice called "Floating Yarn" in white for gills. I think the scud hook (wide gape) would be ideal, give a more natural curve.

^that ^ If/when you roll you own, you may want to do UV resin instead of epoxy- I don't use either one, but the UV sure looks easier and faster. When I could still see a #24 my midges were floss and lacquer and on occasion a bare hook. I have graduated to #16s now ...