Sources Of Ethanol Free Gas

[LD Fisher]

Gentlemen, after spending 30+ year in the refining and marketing of fuels, I can tell you that all motors/engines are designed to use a 10% blend of ethanol.  As Wrench stated, the components will eventually wear out or degrade no matter what fuel you use!

i am not a fan of ethanol, but when the government mandates and subsidizes a product to make price attractive, it will be used.  That being said, I use it in all of my outboards, inboards and small engines and have for years with absolutely no problems or issues.  Ethanol is extremely water sensitive, therefore i change water separators on marine engines annually, if I see a transport delivering gas to a station I will go to a different station to buy gas.  Why? Because while ethanol is metered and added to the transport at the terminal like any other gasoline additive, the key to not having problems lie at the station.  The station needs to be diligent about how much water has condensed in their gasoline tanks and remove any excess water before it is pumped into your tank.  When a transport drops gas into the stations tank, it will mix the sediment and water in the tank with the new gas and this will be suspended for a period until it settles back to the bottom.  Most gasoline stations will have filters in the gas pump housing to filter this sediment before you put it in your tank, but I still don't like filling up while a transport is dropping their load at the station.

Ethanol has a lower btu than regular gasoline and therefore reduces mileage in a vehicle or affects gallons per hr in a boat.  But, it is almost impossible to find ethanol free gas.  Ethanol also boosts octane by 2 points, so, depending on the gas stations tank configuration, ( most only have 2 tanks ) you are buying 87octane gas that is in most cases 89 octane because to have a true 87 octane blended gasoline the station would have to find and buy a 85 sub octane gasoline which is not readily available at product terminal and generally only available at the refineries terminal.  To provide 89 octane the station would need 3 tanks or blend a straight 87 with a 91 octane to get a 89 octane at the pump, this would put the station at a disadvantage because of the cost.  So, if a station has straight or ethanol free 91 octane at the pump it is probably selling 89 octane at both the 87 and 89 octane pumps.  

Long story short, today's engines and fuel systems are designed for a 10% ethanol blend and other than reducing btu's, with common sense maintenance one should not, as Wrench said, experience any problems on the water with a blended fuel.

[tjm]

4 hours ago, LD Fisher said:

Long story short, today's engines and fuel systems are designed for a 10% ethanol blend

Starting at what date? My old F250 sure has a lot more carburetor problems with ethanol and the chainsaw guy said the saw failure was breakdown of the mix oil by ethanol. The new saw did have a sticker saying E10 was OK, but with a few caveats.

[LD Fisher]

TJM, Jimmy Carter introduced the ethanol subsidies in 1979, it became pretty widely available and used in the mid 80's.  As for the chainsaw, I have always used 10% blend in my Stihl chainsaws for years with no problems.......don't know why he'd say that, but each to his own

[tjm]

I don't believe anything was "designed for E10" prior to the late '80s or possibly in some instances the '90s, any thing using a computer to control mixture and timing should adapt to E10, but,  a lot of that older motors still run  can be made to run on alcohol, shoot in the war the French made cars run on wood smoke but they were not "designed" for that, and like smoke the alcohol will always give poor performance.  A mechanical timing system will require re-curving and the carburetors may require re-kitting a couple times a year as the soft rubber parts deteriorate.   In the late '80s Stihl (and others) would not honor the guarantee on a saw run with E10, not because the engine couldn't burn E10 but because the mix oils broke down so rapidly in alcohol leaving the engine with no lubrication and resulting in scored cylinder walls. And because the add heat from the E10 was more than some  saws could take. My '85 Ford runs a little hot on E10 even with a radiator upgrade  and bigger fan, fwiw trucks were kinda the last vehicles to be adapted as they were excluded from some of the early pollution requirements.  If you look at when the manufacturers went to engine control modules and rail fuel injection you see about when the "designed for alcohol" transition took place. Early electronic ignitions and throttle body injection were kinda threshold of the transition. I assume boat engines like saws and other such lagged cars a bit. But I do agree   that if it has been built or redone in this century it should be  vodka compatible.

[LD Fisher]

I agree, most cars and trucks that switched over to ethanol in the 80's had problem because ethanol is one hell of a solvent. Cleaned the gas tanks, fuel lines, etc.  I had a problem with a suburban in the late 80's coming Bach from a soccer tournament when I filled up in Iowa.  Only took 50 miles to plug the fuel filter!!!  Like I said, I'm not a fan of it but Uncle Sugar says we need to use it!!!!! 😡

[TTJJ]

'BoatUS urges recreational boaters to be on watch for engine-killing E15' this summer https://www.boatus.com/pressroom/release.asp?id=1531 [I saw this notice due to my BoatUS tow plan, mailing list]

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/52909.pdf link is also in the BoatUS release above Mercury Marine - effect of E15 on outboards A new Merc 200 EFI 2.5L two-stroke with E15 fuel [ethanol tested 14%] died at 256 hours (of 300 hour WOT endurance test), p42. An identical 200 with E0 fuel completed the 300 hour endurance test and all post-endurance dynamometer tests. WOT = wide-open throttle

My still running 1997 Merc EFI V6 has only had non-Ethanol 87 since new (currently Phillips 66 Miami OK). I can't afford 'the many people who put in valuable time and effort working on the boat' (American Ethanol), 8 team members in 2017. 

Most stations on OK map below sell 87 non-Ethanol. OK oil companies/engineers/chemists know more about fuel than politicians/lobbyists/lawyers. 

     

[fishinwrench]

11 hours ago, TTJJ said:

A new Merc 200 EFI 2.5L two-stroke with E15 fuel [ethanol tested 14%] died at 256 hours (of 300 hour WOT endurance test)

Oh goodie!  Let's tear her down and examine what actually caused her to blow, shall we?      I bet it wasn't fuel quality.  Being a 2.5 Merc my money is on an oil pump drive gear failure, or detonation from over-advanced ignition timing.    

Or....just plain old piss poor engineering.    

[tjm]

2 hours ago, fishinwrench said:

detonation from over-advanced ignition timing. 

How much does the timing need to change as percent of ethanol increases? Can you give a rule of thumb for mechanical timing? 

[aarchdale@coresleep.com]

Here is the inside of a fuel line of my new to me boat i bught from my dad.  He never understood why it never ran very well for him.   Runs pefect now

[fishinwrench]

50 minutes ago, aarchdale@coresleep.com said:

Here is the inside of a fuel line of my new to me boat i bught from my dad.  He never understood why it never ran very well for him.   Runs pefect now

I see that, and worse, all the time.  

How many years before you have to replace your garden hose?  I'm blown away that so many people think that a fuel hose should last longer.