Meramec River Shooting

[Hog Wally]

I personally get a kick out of seeing so many different kinds of people on the river. It's just weird that I can go to six flags or any other place with large crowds and never see the animosity some of these folks have. Good people can turn into real jerks. I have been a jerk one time. Or maybe twice. But I can guarantee if somebody has a gun I'm beating tracks out of the vicinity

[strangercreek]

Not that it matters, because there should not have been a confrontation that escalated to a shooting, but is the Meramec Navigable or not?

[Old plug]

When he reached for the guts arm he made a terrible mistake. The shooter might have thought he was going take the gun. Remember he had other people there with him. I wander about the trying o calm him down. There was threats being made and rocks. No telling what happened in thatv last minute. Let the sheriff and state police figure that one out.

[Hog Wally]

Navigable

[jdmidwest]

Bottom line is that people need to learn how to act in public. Morals and ethics have went out the door a long time ago for most of the general public anyway. It has been an ongoing conflict in the past few years on rivers, drunks, nudity, rude behavior, litter, and mass flotillas of party animals. You really can't hold the rental places responsible for others actions. They don't babysit from entry to takeout points.

Landowner should have handled it differently. He marked his land with stakes and a ribbon. IF they were trespassing, he had the right to ask them to leave. If they refuse, get law enforcement involved. Don't go getting a gun involved. Don't fire a warning shot. What if it would have ricocheted and killed an innocent child? At this point, it is just a trespasser on your land, not a threat to your life.

Floaters should have had more respect. If someone points out that you may be trespassing, don't argue, just leave and then get law enforcement involved. You can see what the end result is when you argue, threaten, and antagonize someone that feels they are a rightful landowner. Nothing on a gravel bar is worth your life. Let him have it and leave.

When it accelerated to the point that the landowner is cornered and several people are threatening him with bodily harm, then self defense MIGHT have come into play. The floaters were clearly threatening him at this point with rocks and bodily harm. But he still had the option to leave and get law enforcement involved, maybe. He MIGHT have been surrounded and had no exit.

A clear definition of the right of way and passage on all streams really needs to be defined. But until it is, there will be more and more conflicts due to the confusion of the law. Most of the articles I have read about this incident points out most of the above. Maybe we can lobby to get a good, FINAL, definition to stream access. I would be more than happy with a law that states waters edge + 50 feet of bank on all waters of the state defined as a public easement. That would allow docking and portage on almost any waterway in the state. Plenty of room to get out and whiz, have a shore lunch, and a good stretch to get rid of the canoe butt.

[Lancer09]

He had a gun, they had a rock. Do you really think that he felt like his life was threatened. Because I don't.

For all we know the deceased might not have been even reaching for the gun if he was still 4-5 feet away. All he could have been doing was putting his hand up to convey a message of "Stop man, we get it, just give us a few minutes."

I understand that floaters need to be more respectful and responsible, but honestly, every bit of blame lies with the shooter and no one else. He made the final decision the pull the trigger and take another human's life. Plain and simple.

[jdmidwest]

He had a gun, they had a rock. Do you really think that he felt like his life was threatened. Because I don't.

For all we know the deceased might not have been even reaching for the gun if he was still 4-5 feet away. All he could have been doing was putting his hand up to convey a message of "Stop man, we get it, just give us a few minutes."

I understand that floaters need to be more respectful and responsible, but honestly, every bit of blame lies with the shooter and no one else. He made the final decision the pull the trigger and take another human's life. Plain and simple.

Were you there? Do you have any first hand info you would like to share?

Any one with the common sense that has been granted to them by the creator would have exited the scene at the first warning shot. There is a man on a gravel bar that is claiming it is his, he has a gun, and he has fired warning shots. Time to go, end of story, period. Leave the scene, your life is in danger. At this point in time, do you really think picking up rocks and advancing is an alternative?

[strangercreek]

I agree that crocker should not have pulled out a weapon. I wasn't there and only know what has been said in the news stories, but based on that he should have kept it holstered (or not had it all if he isn't a responsible gun owner)

If he did fire a warning shot at the ground and/or in the air (which is dangerous as HELL, especially with a handgun or rifle), that tells me he was not dealing with a full deck.

I really wish those floaters would have just left that wackjob in his own misery, but like someone said earlier, he could have been just waiting for a group of floaters that day. I'll be interested to see if this guy was a legal gun owner etc.....because based on the info we have right now, he is pretty irresponsible. I am not saying the floaters are angels either.....

If you carelessly shoot a gun in the air, that is serious business and you should have your firearms rights taken away from you. What if that round traveled a half mile or further and killed someone?

[Al Agnew]

NO. The Meramec is NOT navigable, and that is completely irrelevant.

A lot of people get hung up on the "navigable" designation, without having a clue what it means. Rivers are FEDERALLY navigable if they are big enough to furnish actual commercial boating. The feds designate the navigable rivers, and Missouri goes along with the federal designation. In Missouri, the ONLY rivers that are navigable in the legal sense are the Missouri, Mississippi, Osage for a few miles above the mouth, Gasconade for a very short distance above its mouth...and maybe one or two other short sections of the largest rivers at their lower ends...the White River used to be navigable up to Branson, but is now nothing but lakes. NONE of the popular float streams in Missouri are designated navigable. In the Elder v Delcour case, it was specifically stated by the trial court and agreed with by the Supreme Court that the Meramec was NOT navigable.

However, as I said, that means nothing, except that being navigable means that the landowner ONLY owns the land to the high water mark. On all the Ozark streams, the landowner owns the bottom of the river to the midline of the river, or if he owns both sides he owns the entire river bottom. That's why landowners can dig gravel out of the streams or get royalties if a gravel mining company does it.

In the decision in the Elder v Delcour case, which is generally agreed to be the ONLY thing keeping the Missouri float streams from being the same as some Colorado and Wyoming streams where you can float but you can't legally touch the banks or bottom, the court stated that although the river wasn't designated to be navigable in the legal sense, the long history of fishing and floating by the public plus the fact that the river was used in the past for commercial purposes, especially floating logs to market, gave the public an easement to float, fish, wade, and camp along the river and on the gravel bars. Nowhere was it stated that this was some special case of being navigable. It stated that in spite of being non-navigable, the river could be used by the public.

So please forget about this "navigable or non-navigable" thing. IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!

[joeD]

Good grief. I don't get it. Some nut killed somebody on a popular stream. And that's it. Period. This isn't a gun issue. Or a landowner issue. Or a public safety issue. Or an alcohol issue. Or a political issue. Or a business responsibility issue. Or a river etiquette issue. Or how you swinging dicks would have successfully avoided t

his event.

Some nut decided to murder someone on a gravel bar. That's it.

Now, its about a wake, a funeral, a burial, and a trial.

Life is random and follows no rules. This is a stark example. Distressing, yet unsurprising.