Run Off Little Piney

[Dan Kreher]

Fished Little Piney downstream of Newburg yesterday - wade fishing. Checked out cty rd crossing about 5 miles upstream -- nice water - but felt prospects might be better for smallies with more water downstream. Then drove west of P to see that Grotto Rd from south is closed (removed actually to LWB) and posted. So I drove a couple hundred yards further to Mill Creek bridge crossing on P. Saw nice sized pull out spot on east side of bridge so turned around and parked there. No Keep Out, No Trespass signs or purple paint, so it all looked good to go.

Waded down Mill Ck about 500 yards to Little Piney. Immediately caught a few smallies on Schenks streamer making my way downstream catching fish here and there. Water conditions were beautiful with good flow and just a bit of color. Fished down about 1 hour past Army RR bridge into early afternoon before deciding I'd had enough and began trek back upstream at decent pace.

About 3/4 of the way back to truck, heard a voice in woods to south followed by a surprisingly loud gunshot -- sounded like a shot gun but could have been a big handgun -- I wasn't too discerning at that point -- then a "You're trespassing. Don't come back" to which I replied, "I got ya." and kept moving with even more purpose back upstream to truck. Never saw the guy. I guess he believed I got the message so he didn't need to fire second warning shot.

He had left a note on my truck with description of Mill Creek from the US Forest Service on which he highlighted their language regarding ‘the myth that you can fish any stream as long as you stay in the water’ or something to that effect as prohibiting fishing that stream where it borders private land without permission.

Technically, I was in violation of that stipulation as I had waded down Mill Creek to get to the Little Piney. Following that gunshot I was not that interested in finding that mysterious landowner to plead my case yesterday afternoon.

In 30 years of fishing the Ozarks I have never run into anything even close to this incident.

We all understand that customary public access to float and fish Ozark streams is fairly clear in case law and practice, particularly on large streams with commercial canoe liveries/campgrounds. When we get on the marginally floatable streams or wade streams, the legal position becomes much more murky. And, whenever a landowner is wielding a firearm, I get the message pretty quickly that I’m not welcome there and move on.

It looks like Blue Heron Kayaks does floats on Little Piney from Mill Dam Hollow downstream to Grotto Bridge but not below that. I am not certain if this is simply a matter of ease of logistics – most likely – or that they’ve had issues with landowners below this spot – which is where I was fishing.

Not looking to get into a huge legal access question here, just inquiring if any others have had this issue on Little Piney in this area or anywhere else along that stream.

Regardless, I certainly will not be heading back to that section below Mill Creek unless I decide to float from Grotto Bridge down to Jerome on Gasconade someday – and I’ll paddle quickly past that Mill Creek area.

[fishinwrench]

It's amazing that some people feel that someone floating or wading a stream past their land is justification for armed battle.

Flippin' idiots!

[moguy1973]

Mill Creek is blue ribbon trout waters all the way to where it meets the LP. Not sure how that would be trespassing. Besides, the guy couldn't even show his face to ask you to leave without having to fire a gun. Kind of a punk butt move if you ask me. Looking at the map, I'm not even sure how anyone would even know you were down there since there's not much around the LP in that area. Guess he saw your truck parked and decided he should run you off.

[Al Agnew]

I think I'd report this incident to the county law enforcement authorities. You can't shoot (or threaten to shoot, or imply that you're going to shoot) somebody for trespass even if he was in the right as far as the trespass issues. I know what you mean about gray areas, and since Mill Creek is a wading size stream, if he owned both sides of the creek there he'd technically have a right to keep you off it. But the Little Piney is entirely different. It's a well established floatable stream in that area, and there's no way he should have a legal leg to stand on trying to run you off it. Given the fact that there were not any no trespassing signs at the bridge and a good parking spot, it's likely that a lot of other people are going to be running into the same problem with this guy, and the county authorities are going to have to make a decision about what he can and can't do and inform him about it.

[Jason R.]

I would think about reporting the incident to law enforcement too. Shooting at or near someone for such a stupid reason is obviously illegal (assault with a deadly weapon... at least negligent discharge). I mean yes- you would have to admit to trespassing, but that guy should not be shooting at unarmed fishermen. He's lucky you weren't as much of an armed idiot at he is- he might have been the one that got shot.

[Dan Kreher]

At urging of posters, I contacted Phelps Co Sheriff's Dept yesterday to report the incident. Deputy said they'd look into it as that type of landowner response is not acceptable.

It might be awhile before I head back down that away regardless.

[Ham]

Did the individual that left the note have the courage of his convictions to sign his name to the note on your truck?

I would have most definitely called the authorities. I think I would have done so from my truck at my entry point IF I had cell service. I would not have been there if I thought I was tresspassing and I would not have let his accusations of trespassing keep me from calling the law.

[Dan Kreher]

No name given. His note was a copy of an original, so it seems he must leave these little love letters routinely to folks who park at Hwy P bridge at Mill Creek.

Wasn't feeling like fighting at that time -- as he was packing and I wasn't. Him firing that weapon as a warning shot created a lot different vibe than if he had just verbally admonished me. I did not feel like sticking around to have a conversation with this unseen guy.

With all due respect, it is easier to woulda coulda shoulda when not in the middle of this type of situation. There have been a few other occasions in the past wherein I've become more aggravated at a landowner for giving me some trouble about floating through their property (a few times on Crooked Creek down Ham's way incidentally) when I had every legal right to be there. Those did not result in confrontations but my mood was much different following them. That gunshot had a pretty big impact on my thinking at the time last Friday afternoon.

Now if someone wants to step it up a notch and plead their case to this particular landowner about trespass laws/rights/etc, feel free. But I wasn't up for that last Friday.

[Ham]

My apologies if I cam across as second guessing you. I'm not saying you did anything wrong at all. I would have been upset over the gunshot and angry, but not argumentative with the shooter. I just would have been strongly motivated to call the law ASAP AFTERWARDS.

[snagged in outlet 3]

You did the right thing.

I've been on the receiving end of shots fired and it's a whole different ballgame.

Pete