Mega Longear Sunfish

[Huntingducks117]

13 hours ago, MoCarp said:

Social regulations...interestingly my point exactly...why is that?  if harvest is harvest? many people have no-idea spearfishing is legal in some areas, perhaps if people like me scream loud enough the "social Pressure" can effect changes in regulations

Just because someone is uneducated in a subject and screams loud, does not mean that they are right, and that the regulation actually accomplishes anything. 

How would you feel about a mandatory catch and kill regulation on all common carp?  Would a catch and kill regulation do any good to eliminate carp and improve fishing?   Probably not since there are so many of them, and they are highly reproductive, and not very many people target them, but a lot of people see carp as bad and a pest , so maybe they think  all carp must be killed and must they must scream about it to make it happen.  I think people could scream pretty loud about killing carp since they are a invasive fish that cause a decline of native fish, by destroying spawning grounds, and preying on the eggs of other fishes, ect.     

As noted by the USGS FACTsheet https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?speciesID=4

Impact of Introduction of Common Carp: The common carp is regarded as a pest fish because of its widespread abundance and because of its tendency to destroy vegetation and increase water turbidity by dislodging plants and rooting around in the substrate, causing a deterioration of habitat for species requiring vegetation and clean water (Cole 1905; Cahoon 1953; Bellrichard 1996; Laird and Page 1996). Available literature indicates common carp may destroy aquatic macrophytes directly by uprooting or consuming the plants, or indirectly by increasing turbidity and thereby reducing light for photosynthesis. Bellrichard (1996) found that alterations in macrophyte biomass are due more to direct effects of common carp. In their review of the literature, Richardson et al. (1995) concluded that common carp has had noted adverse effects on biological systems including destruction of vegetated breeding habitats used by both fish and birds, and an increase in turbidity. It stirs up the bottom during feeding, resulting in increased siltation and turbidity (Lee et al. 1980 et seq.). This feeding behavior also destroys rooted aquatic plants that provide habitat for native fish species and food for waterfowl (Dentler 1993). Bonneau and Scarnecchia (2015) found that carp eradication and exclusion from reservoir tributaries allowed for increased benthic invertebrate community diversity and abundance, and the return of submerged aquatic vegetation.

There is also evidence that common carp prey on the eggs of other fish species (Moyle 1976; Taylor et al. 1984; Miller and Beckman 1996). For this reason, it may be responsible for the decline of the razorback sucker Xyrauchen texanus in the Colorado River basin (Taylor et al. 1984). In another case, Miller and Beckman (1996) documented white sturgeon Acipenser transmontanus eggs in the stomachs of common carp in the Columbia River. In California, carp have been implicated in the decrease in water clarity in Clear Lake, Lake County, and in the gradual disappearance of native fishes (Moyle 1976). McCarraher and Gregory (1970) wrote that in 1894 there was documentation that Sacramento perch Archoplites interruptus were becoming more scarce because carp was destroying their spawning grounds. Laird and Page (1996) stated that common carp may compete with ecologically similar species such as carpsuckers and buffalos. Because this species has been present in many areas since the first surveys, its impacts on many of the native fishes are difficult to determine. Once established in a water body, common carp is difficult and expensive to eliminate (e.g., Cahoon 1953).

 

that sounds pretty bad.

 

13 hours ago, MoCarp said:

have you ever shot a trout? post a pic please

I have never seen a trout while diving. 

 

13 hours ago, MoCarp said:

if I get lucky I can land 4 walleyes all over 8#....yet the odds of that are low...yet all you have to do is SEE them to shoot them, If spearfishing was so benign it would be legal everywhere...its not and MOST states would call it poaching, just like spot lighting deer or shooting turkeys off the roost, I use hunting metaphor because it is FISH HUNTING...and a very dangerous one at that

I have never even seen a total of 4 walleye over 8 pounds while diving, in the 5 years I have been doing it.    So you're actually admitting that rod and reel angling is more effective at catching big fish, since it sounds like you have caught multiple 8 pounders in a single day, more than once, while myself and all the spearfishermen I know have not seen that many 8 pound fish in a day or season.  Were you fishing the spawn when you caught all those fish.  Do you eat walleye?  

 

Its nothing like spotlighting deer or shooting a turkey out of the roost, as shown in your video, your lack of experience in the subject is showing again. 

 

Why is hunting for fish dangerous when you practice it safely. 

What's with you and googling dramatic pictures? What, I guess nobody has ever been injured while fishing out of a boat or by hunting for deer or turkeys? 

I'd google some pictures for you, but everyone knows it happens daily, and I know you can find the pictures for yourself. 

 

Sweet video.  Gets me excited to dive.  What are your issues with harvesting 1/2 of a rod and reel limit of eater size bass to eat?  They look like good eater bass and he is within the spearfishing regulations.  None of those bass were 10 pounders or even 5 pounders or even 3 pounders, but you claim spear fishermen can shoot the largest fish in the lake at will.   Do you eat fish?  Do you eat bass?  Do you think nobody should harvest and eat fish or bass because you don't agree with it? 

[BilletHead]

 Get ready Mr huntingducks he will twist all you said even though everyone else knows you are right. 

 BilletHead.

[MoCarp]

3 hours ago, Devan S. said:

YAY! You kind of answered it. Your right unless someone tracks this you have absolutely no way of knowing. If AGFC came out and said we have data to show it causes no harm would you change your tune? The only caveat to my question was as compared to rod and reel fishermen. Of which, I believe we can safely establish that most of those that catch a legal walleye or legal striper or legal large bream,(assuming they are targeting them and not a by catch) are keeping them. That completely changes the narrative of the the question and would completely change most peoples answer to the question but likely wont change yours. Why? You're frankly to far into this to turn back now whether it does or doesn't change your answer.

You exactly right it is fish hunting. 

Answer this question very clearly as well:

What is the specific delineating feature that makes you okay with any form of legal hunting but not spear fishing? 

the term "fair chase" and the public opinion is what drives what is honorable... back in the day it was cool to shoot birds off the roost, and fishing with TnT. it was the drop in wildlife populations that gave rise to wildlife/fisheries management and the "conservation" of said species and habitats. 

like most science we learn more everyday. I am not a peta type person, hunting fishing and even trapping is something I have done and enjoyed,...its not the 1st time people try and hang that narrative animal rightist on me.

3 hours ago, aarchdale@coresleep.com said:

i guarantee more fish die per day from being deep hooked than from a spear on any lake in Arkansas

I'd would say that would be a fair statement...but I'd bet the trophy sized fish harvested by spear fishermen is greater, the state of Texas experimented with Bfing catfish and after study discontinued the regulation because of the disproportionately higher numbers of trophy size catfish harvested.

I can say that far more large cats were taken by anglers than were shot yet yet for the reasons I have stated at ad-nauseum stabbing disproportionately harvests trophy sized fish and the impacts of doing so on said fishery

2 hours ago, tjm said:

I am semi opposed to catch and release because of all the released rod and reel fish that I've seen dead. We talk about fish handling and care but there are dozens of anglers that have no idea what that means, many think they are doing good when they are in reality wasting a fish that is slowly dying.

If I had MoCarp's zeal and energy I would campaign for regulations that made every one eat every carp they catch.  And only allow certified anglers to release bass under 20".

education on fish handling has been blowing up social media Muskie, bass even carp..if you don'y think so scan a few FB groups of pages...trout anglers have done a far better job of fish handling

1 hour ago, tjm said:

maybe on a carp forum

more in this state than you would think...more than a few lurk on this form😉 

[MoCarp]

1 hour ago, Huntingducks117 said:

I have never seen a trout while diving. 

but would you shoot a 20# brown?

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a total of 4 walleye over 8 pounds while diving, in the 5 years I have been doing it.    

I know people who have been walleye fishing for over 10 years and never caught a 5# walleye, how many walleyes over 5# have you shot in your whole 5 years? some anglers go their whole life and never catch a 8# walleye, so four in 5 years? be a pretty good angler to catch a 8#er every year....

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its nothing like spotlighting deer or shooting a turkey out of the roost, as shown in your video, your lack of experience in the subject is showing again. 

Why is hunting for fish dangerous when you practice it safely. 

Has your whole 5 years of experience has allowed you to draw on your vast experience on this issue?, methods like spearfishing gives an un-fair advantage..just like spotlighting...and its why MOST states do-not allow it...

the lobby used to make it spearfishing legal is something we in the carp community are using to effect favorable regulations to our advantage the VAST multi-billion dollars carp industry in the EU shows vast economic potential here in the states that has made our job easier

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What's with you and googling dramatic pictures? What, I guess nobody has ever been injured while fishing out of a boat or by hunting for deer or turkeys?  I'd google some pictures for you, but everyone knows it happens daily, and I know you can find the pictures for yourself. 

Picture is worth 1000 words...I'd would hope it really isn't happening on a daily basis

Quote

Sweet video.  Gets me excited to dive.  What are your issues with harvesting 1/2 of a rod and reel limit of eater size bass to eat?  They look like good eater bass and he is within the spearfishing regulations.  None of those bass were 10 pounders or even 5 pounders or even 3 pounders, but you claim spear fishermen can shoot the largest fish in the lake at will.   Do you eat fish?  Do you eat bass?  Do you think nobody should harvest and eat fish or bass because you don't agree with it? 

lots of people still fish just for food...thankfully those % of the angling community are getting less and less, and Trophy waters are being created in most states on a variety of species even common carp!

ironically on Lake Fork in Texas you can still kill and if you want eat a 10# LMB yet the angling community would not give you a warm an fuzzy over it...just like my response on stabbing of the biggest and best of the lowly long ear sunfish...a monster of its kind, much like a 13# LMB would be...I have spent a great deal of my angling life chasing huge sunfish of all species perhaps when you have spent almost 50 years fishing, hunting and trapping your opinion on these issues will evolve as mine did....true trophy fish are rare and too special to use only once

[Flysmallie]

25 minutes ago, MoCarp said:

 public opinion is what drives what is honorable...

Well public opinion of you is a joke so you would think you would do the honorable thing and just go away. 

You should actually take up fishing and post some reports. But I don't think that your skills could match your big mouth so you just choose to be the annoying punk that nobody wants around. 

[Devan S.]

3 minutes ago, MoCarp said:

the term "fair chase" and the public opinion is what drives what is honorable... back in the day it was cool to shoot birds off the roost, and fishing with TnT. it was the drop in wildlife populations that gave rise to wildlife/fisheries management and the "conservation" of said species and habitats. 

like most science we learn more everyday. I am not a peta type person, hunting fishing and even trapping is something I have done and enjoyed,...its not the 1st time people try and hang that narrative animal rightist on me.

I'd would say that would be a fair statement...but I'd bet the trophy sized fish harvested by spear fishermen is greater, the state of Texas experimented with Bfing catfish and after study discontinued the regulation because of the disproportionately higher numbers of trophy size catfish harvested.

I can say that far more large cats were taken by anglers than were shot yet yet for the reasons I have stated at ad-nauseum stabbing disproportionately harvests trophy sized fish and the impacts of doing so on said fishery

education on fish handling has been blowing up social media Muskie, bass even carp..if you don'y think so scan a few FB groups of pages...trout anglers have done a far better job of fish handling

more in this state than you would think...more than a few lurk on this form😉 

Once again you dodge the question. Answer the question. I didn't ask what the court of public opinion was I asked what your opinion was. What in your mind separates to the two activities?

You said the drop in wildlife populations due to those harvest methods cause the conservation efforts. Yet everyone here has the opinion that the spear fishing done in a recreational fashion by the vast minority within the guidelines set forth by the AGFC, has a statistically smaller impact that rod/reel fishing does. 

So please answer me this:

What in your opinion makes them draw that conclusion? Are all these people that collectively spend hundreds of days on the water that clueless? 

 

 

[MoCarp]

2 hours ago, Huntingducks117 said:

 

How would you feel about a mandatory catch and kill regulation on all common carp?  Would a catch and kill regulation do any good to eliminate carp and improve fishing?   Probably not since there are so many of them, and they are highly reproductive, and not very many people target them, but a lot of people see carp as bad and a pest , so maybe they think  all carp must be killed and must they must scream about it to make it happen.  I think people could scream pretty loud about killing carp since they are a invasive fish that cause a decline of native fish, by destroying spawning grounds, and preying on the eggs of other fishes, ect.     

As noted by the USGS FACTsheet https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?speciesID=4

Impact of Introduction of Common Carp: The common carp is regarded as a pest fish because of its widespread abundance and because of its tendency to destroy vegetation and increase water turbidity by dislodging plants and rooting around in the substrate, causing a deterioration of habitat for species requiring vegetation and clean water (Cole 1905; Cahoon 1953; Bellrichard 1996; Laird and Page 1996). Available literature indicates common carp may destroy aquatic macrophytes directly by uprooting or consuming the plants, or indirectly by increasing turbidity and thereby reducing light for photosynthesis. Bellrichard (1996) found that alterations in macrophyte biomass are due more to direct effects of common carp. In their review of the literature, Richardson et al. (1995) concluded that common carp has had noted adverse effects on biological systems including destruction of vegetated breeding habitats used by both fish and birds, and an increase in turbidity. It stirs up the bottom during feeding, resulting in increased siltation and turbidity (Lee et al. 1980 et seq.). This feeding behavior also destroys rooted aquatic plants that provide habitat for native fish species and food for waterfowl (Dentler 1993). Bonneau and Scarnecchia (2015) found that carp eradication and exclusion from reservoir tributaries allowed for increased benthic invertebrate community diversity and abundance, and the return of submerged aquatic vegetation.

There is also evidence that common carp prey on the eggs of other fish species (Moyle 1976; Taylor et al. 1984; Miller and Beckman 1996). For this reason, it may be responsible for the decline of the razorback sucker Xyrauchen texanus in the Colorado River basin (Taylor et al. 1984). In another case, Miller and Beckman (1996) documented white sturgeon Acipenser transmontanus eggs in the stomachs of common carp in the Columbia River. In California, carp have been implicated in the decrease in water clarity in Clear Lake, Lake County, and in the gradual disappearance of native fishes (Moyle 1976). McCarraher and Gregory (1970) wrote that in 1894 there was documentation that Sacramento perch Archoplites interruptus were becoming more scarce because carp was destroying their spawning grounds. Laird and Page (1996) stated that common carp may compete with ecologically similar species such as carpsuckers and buffalos. Because this species has been present in many areas since the first surveys, its impacts on many of the native fishes are difficult to determine. Once established in a water body, common carp is difficult and expensive to eliminate (e.g., Cahoon 1953).

 

I have been over the last few years doing exhaustive research on common carp, I am helping some state biologist on this issue and have even inquired with local states to get the data....like many things the whole story is more complex...common carp can be an issue in predominantly silt bottomed shallow eutrophic lakes of the upper midwest with source point pollution issues (caca water and road salts)...Ironically Large Mouth bass are implicated in California studies and have been directly blamed for the extinction of native fishes and amphibians...somewhere I have a link to a study or 20 that shows this posted on this forum 9LMB are not native west of the rockies)

common carp have long been blamed for eating the spawn of "gamefish" yet no definitive evidence have even been submitted in academia 

many of the disappearances blamed on common carp have happened post WWII....just so you know Common Carp have been in waters in our area and most of the USA for 140 years...let me say that again ONE HUNDRED AND FOURT YEARS! they were here  before the 1st white river dam was built and swam in the white river back in the old glory days when you could catch scads of bronze backs in a good old fashion Ozark float.

I remember how the alligator gar was blamed in the same ways and even bounties paid on their harvest...yet today we seek to protect and even raise them in hatcheries...soon a major paper backed with decades of data is to be published that will be a milestone....I would suggest you read some of the studies hard data you posted sometimes conclusions can fly in the face of the data something that will be addressed in the soon to be published paper!

[Devan S.]

4 minutes ago, MoCarp said:

but would you shoot a 20# brown?

I know people who have been walleye fishing for over 10 years and never caught a 5# walleye, how many walleyes over 5# have you shot in your whole 5 years? some anglers go their whole life and never catch a 8# walleye, so four in 5 years? be a pretty good angler to catch a 8#er every year....

Has your whole 5 years of experience has allowed you to draw on your vast experience on this issue?, methods like spearfishing gives an un-fair advantage..just like spotlighting...and its why MOST states do-not allow it...

the lobby used to make it spearfishing legal is something we in the carp community are using to effect favorable regulations to our advantage the VAST multi-billion dollars carp industry in the EU shows vast economic potential here in the states that has made our job easier

Picture is worth 1000 words...I'd would hope it really isn't happening on a daily basis

lots of people still fish just for food...thankfully those % of the angling community are getting less and less, and Trophy waters are being created in most states on a variety of species even common carp!

ironically on Lake Fork in Texas you can still kill and if you want eat a 10# LMB yet the angling community would not give you a warm an fuzzy over it...just like my response on stabbing of the biggest and best of the lowly long ear sunfish...a monster of its kind, much like a 13# LMB would be...I have spent a great deal of my angling life chasing huge sunfish of all species perhaps when you have spent almost 50 years fishing, hunting and trapping your opinion on these issues will evolve as mine did....true trophy fish are rare and too special to use only once

 

I have fished a grand total of 3 days this year for Walleye(having a new born really cuts down your fishing days). All rod and reel as I have already admitted I don't spearfish. I managed one over 5#, 2 over 3#. Buddy I know did the same thing I did, 3-over 7# and multiple others 3+lbs. Wanna know how it was done or do you already have an idea? We were fishing within spitting range of 10 other people. Those people were certainly catching fish as well. Not a sole was spearfishing where we were and there were certainly a number of large walleye caught in that same couple hundred yard stretch over a month or so.  

Once again harvested with a rod and reel, from a put and take fishery. No issue right? We weren't spearfishing. 

Or do you now want to change the rules on that too and limit the time of year I can fish, locations I can fish, eliminate live bait? Where do you stop to accomplish your stated goal of a world class fishery?

[MoCarp]

24 minutes ago, Flysmallie said:

Well public opinion of you is a joke so you would think you would do the honorable thing and just go away. 

and give up the good fight??? 😆

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You should actually take up fishing and post some reports. But I don't think that your skills could match your big mouth so you just choose to be the annoying punk that nobody wants around. 

I'd love to, but my bad health gets in the way...but I'd say few people will every get to have fished as much as I have, or as blessed to landed my share of trophy fish..I understand that the stabbers and stabber lovers hate me...I can live with that

20 minutes ago, Devan S. said:

Once again you dodge the question. Answer the question. I didn't ask what the court of public opinion was I asked what your opinion was. What in your mind separates to the two activities?

I will answer again S-L-O-W-L-Y hunting fish specifically the largest of the species is akin to shooting a huge tom turkey off the roost or spotlighting a 14 point buck...taints the accomplishments of "legitimate'  sportsmen...IMHO

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You said the drop in wildlife populations due to those harvest methods cause the conservation efforts.

yes do some reading on the subject...ever wonder why the government started??? interesting reads and the accomplishments achieved is awesome!

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Yet everyone here has the opinion that the spear fishing done in a recreational fashion by the vast minority within the guidelines set forth by the AGFC, has a statistically smaller impact that rod/reel fishing does. 

not everyone here, my inbox says otherwise...kinda like the last election next thing they knew hail to the chief was played for Trump

And deer spotlighted are a statistically smaller impact on the deer harvest, again I will say this S-L-O-W-L-Y the WAY you harvest matters!.... with your argument as long as limits are followed any method should be kosher....if you don't think so post your pic on http://www.bigbluegill.com   or a stabbed bass on any bass FB page or group....sweet baby jesus post a stabbed muskie on a Muskie FB or group page...

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41 minutes ago, Devan S. said:

So please answer me this:

What in your opinion makes them draw that conclusion? Are all these people that collectively spend hundreds of days on the water that clueless? 

 

the regulation was allowed by effective lobbing by the spearfishing community, its my understanding the Bfing community is seeking an expansion to allow the same harvest as you know enjoy...if that happens you can count on a public back lash that could steal your current privilege as well when pics like this start showing up in earnest..look real close at the dumpster pic ahh catfish you should see the ones I am saving for the big fights.

[MoCarp]

27 minutes ago, Devan S. said:

Or do you now want to change the rules on that too and limit the time of year I can fish, locations I can fish, eliminate live bait? Where do you stop to accomplish your stated goal of a world class fishery?

the upper trophy area of Taney is a good start