Knots, Line, and so on

[snagged in outlet 3]

9 hours ago, Mitch f said:

I just have this concept of stealthier line with no stretch and want to perfect the knot. When it’s all said and done a bunch of well respected fisherman use straight braid on their spinning rod and catch a ton of fish. I’m just trying to convince myself that it doesn’t matter to the fish. 

 

I used to use straight braid on a med heavy bait caster with a jig and pig.  Never seemed to be a difference between me and my buddy who used mono.  Strictly largemouth fishing though.  

[tjm]

15 hours ago, Mitch f said:

I’m just trying to convince myself that it doesn’t matter to the fish. 

Just an opinion, but, I don't think the fish we commonly target are intelligent enough to distinguish between one line and another, I think that they can see all lines and just don't have the cognition to associate the line with the bait. I say this based on not only things that I've  read about fishes' ability to see and distinguish both very small items and colors, and on experiments I did back in the late 1970s using trout in very clear slow water, live worms, and numerous sizes and colors of nylon monofilament as well as a couple of nylon braids. I used two or  three lines with live bait and just enough weight to keep the bait on the bottom where I could watch it, each line a different size or color from the others and line sizes ranging from clear 1# mono through high vis 20# mono with tan braid and black braid included. I found that trout would most often chose the worm that was on the least visible (to me) line, but given a choice between baits on only highly visible lines  would still take a live worm. That they would chose the worm on 1# test clear nylon over 3# Chameleon and that on 3# Chameleon over the worm on 20# yellow Stren did not surprise me, because the received  wisdom says that trout are leader shy. But, that presumed leader shy fish would still take the bait when presented on 45# braided squiding line did change my beliefs on just how leader shy fish really are. The trials lasted over several weeks of summer mostly in the same stocked mill pond, with different lighting and weather conditions.  In actual fishing conditions, I think suppleness counts more than size, test strength or color; a stiff line restricts the movement of the bait. I've also found bass and other species to be tolerant of the most highly visible lines, in moving water- I don't fish lakes enough to know.   Do your own experimenting some time, I'd like to know if other's result match mine.

Of course if I have a fishless day I can always say "my tippet must have  been too big".

[tjm]

  

Towendolly

18 hours ago, Al Agnew said:

Try getting a drag free drift and good mends without using the indicator.  

At 40-50' with a bare line I would be taking inch long strips or using a hand twist retrieve to purposely prevent drift. Across and up cast followed by a twitching retrieve "swims" the nymph as it moves downstream, as well as keeping the line taut.  I think bare line nymphing requires the line be taut at all times, drag free drift (and suspension method) requires a degree of slack at all times.

18 hours ago, Al Agnew said:

I believe that we get far fewer "drag-free" drifts than most of us think.  On a typical drift, the surface current where the indicator is will often be faster than the current along the bottom. 

I'll certainly agree with the second thought, and I'll take it further, I don't think anyone ever gets a "drag free drift" except on the surface. And further still, I don't think fish would take a lure that was actually "drag free" dead drifting; fish as predators respond to living prey, insect larvae that we imitate with our flies are all moving within the water showing life. Sticks, pebbles  and other debris would normally have a "drag free" or "dead" drift and are largely ignored by the fish. Movement relative to the water is necessary to indicate life. The bobber/indicator/suspension device method of nymphing works so well simply because even unskilled beginners can achieve some movement relative to the water flow due to the drag induced by the bobber. I believe it was Frank Sawyer, a pioneer in euro nymphing, who developed the idea of "induced take" accomplished  by moving the fly up and away from the trout, Jim Leisenring caused his wet flies to rise in the water column by pausing the rod, my long ago  mentor  insisted that all wets (including nymphs) needed to have some  motion imparted to them, even midge pupae on still water. Split shot as used by Humphreys change the fly speed relative to the water each time they "bounce" off the bottom, "leading" the fly with the rod as practiced by Ted Towendolly, Ted Fay,  Chuck Fothergill and the current generation of euro nymphers moves the fly slightly faster than a "drag free drift" but it catches fish.  Even a fine leader hanging vertical in the water column will cause some "drag" (or life) to the nymph due to the varying current speeds within the water column.

[Seth]

I use a Sandiego Jam Knot for my spinning gear and a double Sandiego on my heaver setups when using Fluoro. I've always heard a Palomar was a no-no for fluorocarbon. Break offs only happen if I do a slack line hook set with a short amount of line out. The only time that really happens is when a smallie darts out and bites me right at the boat and I get a bit too excited.

I'm not a fan of straight braid simply becuase it's not nearly as abrasion resistant as fluorocarbon. Plus if I break off, I rather break off a leader of fluoro versus a length of braid and save the braid. 

There are a few instances where I will run straight braid though. If I'm throwing a big whopper plopper or frogging/punching in heavy vegetation, then I will run straight 50-65# braid.
 

 

[Flysmallie]

I use straight braid on most of my spinning reels. I know at times I might get more bites with a leader, but I’ve had amazing days on crystal clear water with straight braid going to a Ned rig.

 

 

[tjm]

How often is abrasion a factor?

I've had stream fish run under slab rocks and around drowned trees numerous times and don't recall many abraded leaders.  I know abrasion resistance is always a big advertising factor with companies like Maxima even advertising that their Chameleon is more abrasive resistant than their own Clear and that their Clear is more abrasion resistant than their Ultragreen, but  it just doesn't seem to happen that often to me. 

[fishinwrench]

1 hour ago, tjm said:

How often is abrasion a factor?

Here on Lake O back when Trilene XT was the toughest line you could buy.....it definitely was a factor around dock cables.

P-Line fluorocarbon solved that.  I haven't broke off on a cable in YEARS.  

[Mitch f]

7 minutes ago, fishinwrench said:

Here on Lake O back when Trilene XT was the toughest line you could buy.....it definitely was a factor around dock cables.

P-Line fluorocarbon solved that.  I haven't broke off on a cable in YEARS.  

P-Line Straight fluorocarbon or Hybrid CXX?

[fishinwrench]

9 minutes ago, Mitch f said:

P-Line Straight fluorocarbon or Hybrid CXX?

P-Line CX Premium is what I like to use, but it's getting hard to find.

The CXX is a bit too stiff and wirey for my taste.

[tjm]

I would have thought that if the line was in contact with a cable hard enough to abrade it that the lure or fish  would be hung up by it. Of course that's a kind of fishing that I've never done.