Smallmouth on the Winter Solstice

[WestCentralFisher]

14 hours ago, tjm said:

I did fairly extensive line testing once long ago, every  nylon mono weight from 20# down to 3/4# test, using small baits and very large nightcrawers in very clear still water and stocked RBT, my conclusion was that the fish don't associate the line with the bait at all. But stiffer lines do restrict bait movement and that can affect the fish's perception  of it as live food. At the time I was using lots of <2# test, the 9X was ~1/2#, 8X 3/4#, 7X 1#  and those have more than double the strength now. After a full summer of spending several hours a couple times a week with those fish, I convinced myself to use stronger leaders.

But I'm also convinced that if someone has confidence in a system that that system will always seem to perform better for them. It works for you and that's what matters. 

It could be just a matter of confidence, and I don't doubt you tested this much more extensively than I did.

My biggest point of reference is that earlier this year (August/September) I was really struggling to consistently catch trout. I re-spooled with 2# test, and I really did notice what felt like an immediate uptick in the number of fish I hooked, and that continued on. It was sort of a turning point in my success, or at least I thought it so. 

A couple notes: as most folks will recall, the water was really low and clear in late summer and early fall this year, so any possible effects would have been more than normal. Additionally, I can't rule out I just improved in other aspects of my ability at at the same time and it's coincidental. And the biggest differences were in slow, glassy pools with slow presenting lures (jigs, primarily). 

I also did well fishing on the 11 Point in relatively low water conditions with 6 pound test, but that surprises me not at all. The Eleven Point is basically a big brawling Rocky Mountain trout stream transposed into an Ozark landscape, and it is sort of its own thing.

It's sort of like changing the color of a jig/spinner/whatever, and starting to catch fish. You never really know if the change mattered, or the fish just happened to start biting right then, but it's hard to want to switch back to the previous color either way. 

[fishinwrench]

It depends on what you're throwing, and how/where you're fishing it.  

Big Browns on the Current river will not hesitate to clobber a big 5" jerkbait worked erratically on 15# line, regardless of how clear the water is. 

[tjm]

Lighter line does allow the bait or lure to react to currents and rod/line manipulation more freely, because of it's greater limpness, although new line regardless of weight is usually more limp than old line and some brands are much more limp in the same weight than other brands are. An example of that is Maxima Chameleon vs Maxima Ultragreen; Chameleon is 2-3 times stiffer than Ultragreen in the same weight test, and although I prefer Chameleon for building fly leaders just because of that stiffness, I would chose Ultragreen for spin fishing just because of it's greater limpness. I've seen a guy catch lots of trout using 8# test and I've seen a ~12# carp landed on 3# test using an ultralight rod/reel, so I'm always curious about the reasons for such choices. Back east I once watched a group of college kids limit out on opening  day trout in a small lake using salt water gear and stripper/bluefish lures. Anything can work and I would like to know why that's true.

I've found the 5-6# line to be a good compromise for the way I fish, mostly, and it usually allows me to put enough  pressure on the fish  to end the fight quickly when releasing the fish; I have the idea that extended fighting stresses the fish too much. If targeting stream bass I do up  my tippets to 8#-12# to adjust for the heavier currents and sunken wood.

You are 100% correct, we never know if the the change we made was the difference or if it was only because the sun moved  a little bit and changed the lighting underwater. I've often attributed it to the earth shifting slightly on it's axis. 

[WestCentralFisher]

55 minutes ago, fishinwrench said:

It depends on what you're throwing, and how/where you're fishing it.  

Big Browns on the Current river will not hesitate to clobber a big 5" jerkbait worked erratically on 15# line, regardless of how clear the water is. 

Yeah, it totally depends, I agree. Heavy line isn't going to impact the action of a jerkbait/crankbait, and since any take will likely be a spur of the moment thing the line getting noticed is unlikely. I find that's mostly true with spinners, the exception being on small wild trout creeks in low water where everything just seems so magnified and every little thing matters.

But anything slow where a take is not likely to be a reaction strike is a different story I think. Lots of times when I fish jigs, I am either dead-drifting or almost so with slight twitches. Fish are often looking at it a few seconds before a take (or not). In those cases, when sight fishing, even with 2# line I'll see fish spook from what I at least think is the line, and my educated guess from observation is that it happens more often the heavier the line. 

Of course, this can be made moot by even a little rain and an olive-green cloudiness to the water. That's why this stuff basically doesn't matter on the 11 Point. It basically always has a slightly lower level of clarity. I also suspect it doesn't matter nearly much in fast water or anywhere with significant turbulence. 

[snagged in outlet 3]

1 hour ago, tjm said:

the earth shifting slightly on it's axis. 

I think it's pole migration...😆

[Al Agnew]

On 12/22/2024 at 6:04 PM, tjm said:

I did fairly extensive line testing once long ago, every  nylon mono weight from 20# down to 3/4# test, using small baits and very large nightcrawers in very clear still water and stocked RBT, my conclusion was that the fish don't associate the line with the bait at all. But stiffer lines do restrict bait movement and that can affect the fish's perception  of it as live food. At the time I was using lots of <2# test, the 9X was ~1/2#, 8X 3/4#, 7X 1#  and those have more than double the strength now. After a full summer of spending several hours a couple times a week with those fish, I convinced myself to use stronger leaders.

But I'm also convinced that if someone has confidence in a system that that system will always seem to perform better for them. It works for you and that's what matters. 

Bingo!  I NEVER choose line pound test (or diameter) based upon water clarity or the fish I'm pursuing.  I choose it completely on what flies or lures I'm using.  I fly fish on famous Montana spring creeks where the water is always super clear, small, full of trout that see a LOT of pressure (in a manner of speaking...rods are limited to something like 16-20 per day over about a mile of creek, but most days are full and many of the anglers are accompanied by guides who are making sure they are doing things more or less correctly).  Anyway, these ARE sophisticated fish.  But I fish for them with streamers and 3x tippet.  Mainly because nobody else does that. And catch plenty, and a lot of bigger ones.  I NEVER fish tippet thinner than 5x anymore, unless it's a very rare instance where the fish are feeding on a size 20-22 fly, where I'll go down to 6x because it doesn't overpower the fly.  In clear water a fish can see 2 pound test line JUST AS EASILY as 4 pound test, and they darned sure don't carry around calipers to measure the diameter. It boggles my mind that people think the 4 pound line turns them off while the 2 pound line does not.  Same as I use anything from 8 to 12 pound copoly line on my baitcasters while smallmouth fishing...I use different lines to match the lures I'm using, not the water clarity. 

[WestCentralFisher]

11 hours ago, Al Agnew said:

Bingo!  I NEVER choose line pound test (or diameter) based upon water clarity or the fish I'm pursuing.  I choose it completely on what flies or lures I'm using.  I fly fish on famous Montana spring creeks where the water is always super clear, small, full of trout that see a LOT of pressure (in a manner of speaking...rods are limited to something like 16-20 per day over about a mile of creek, but most days are full and many of the anglers are accompanied by guides who are making sure they are doing things more or less correctly).  Anyway, these ARE sophisticated fish.  But I fish for them with streamers and 3x tippet.  Mainly because nobody else does that. And catch plenty, and a lot of bigger ones.  I NEVER fish tippet thinner than 5x anymore, unless it's a very rare instance where the fish are feeding on a size 20-22 fly, where I'll go down to 6x because it doesn't overpower the fly.  In clear water a fish can see 2 pound test line JUST AS EASILY as 4 pound test, and they darned sure don't carry around calipers to measure the diameter. It boggles my mind that people think the 4 pound line turns them off while the 2 pound line does not.  Same as I use anything from 8 to 12 pound copoly line on my baitcasters while smallmouth fishing...I use different lines to match the lures I'm using, not the water clarity. 

For the sake of clarity (some pun intended) this mostly matches with what I said. I think heavier line has an effect with more subtle forms of presentation like tiny marabou jigs, and less so (if at all) with less subtle presentations like  spinners/crankbaits.

I do happen to think 2 pound test is marginally less likely to spook fish than 4 pound based on anecdotal, visual observation while sight-fishing. That conclusion may well be wrong, but I do fail to see how it would be "mind-boggling" to draw a seemingly reasonable conclusion (smaller diameter material may be less likely to be noticed by fish) based on observational evidence that seems to support it. There are loads of possible reasons I could be interpreting the evidence incorrectly, but I'm compelled to push back a touch at the insinuation that it's a ridiculous thought.

I will allow that I've not yet seen fish carrying calipers about, but I'll keep an eye out for it. If you see any, please let me know. Might be time to take up golf at that point.

Anyway, y'all have an excellent Christmas Eve, regardless of which gauge of fishing line you prefer.

[oneshot 1]

I need to go fishing.  Thinking of so Goggle Eye and Suckers but catch a Trout or Bass going on Stringer too.

oneshot 

[WestCentralFisher]

3 minutes ago, oneshot 1 said:

I need to go fishing.  Thinking of so Goggle Eye and Suckers but catch a Trout or Bass going on Stringer too.

oneshot 

The river is certainly very nice right now. And not that many people on it even on a Saturday with fairly good weather. 

[dblades]

Don't do much trout fishing, however I've probably used more 8lb test over the years than any other size. Even had a partner that use it flipping jigs in Florida.  Thrown  a ton of cranks even in Truman and got them out of trees etc.