Troubles at Mizzou

[vernon]

Actually, as I remember it, the sentiments and comments were nearly identical when I went to college as they are now and that was 45 years ago.

Everyone was asking, Why does college have to be so expensive, who can afford these tuition rates, education is pricing itself out of business, we'll be paying on these student loans until the day we die!

Sounds similar to folks talking about buying a new boat nowadays but I digress.

My first two years in college were the fall of 1971 to the spring of 1974 and I returned in the 1980's to finish up and get my degree and all anybody talked about throughout both of those decades was the soaring cost of college tuition and the ridiculous rates of student loans.

Everything changes with time - some for the better some not so much.  Personally, I don't agree that earlier generations had better opportunities for college educations but if we were indeed more fortunate then good for us I say.

There's certainly plenty of advantages provided to todays youth that we didn't have access to when we were young so I don't think they're being all that deprived.

It shouldn't be up to the government, federal OR state to solve all of our financial woes and be the provider of opportunity educational or otherwise.

In fact, I would argue that the interjection of the government is EXACTLY the reason that we struggle to adjust to constantly changing economic "priorities" with every new administration be it state or federal, republican or democrat, education or health care.

Everyone has an agenda but education is obviously not the agenda of everyone.

I thinks it's WAY more important that we solve the ridiculously inept quality of schools at the elementary and secondary levels in the inner cities before we get too worked up over opportunities at the university level.

Over 90% of students in the city of Detroit can't pass a basic reading or math test for crying out loud.  And we should be focusing on Mary and Johnny (who by comparison ALREADY have been provided a huge advantage in the way of educational opportunity) being able to get into My Choice U?

Sorry but I don't think so.

[Quillback]

14 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

....because tuition is offsetting losses from the state legislature.  If you want college tuition to be what it was when you were in school, I'm encouraging  you in the strongest possible terms to notify your state legislator of that fact.  If you're expecting the same level of education given drastically fewer resources...why?  Why should these students not have the same access to education which you had?

They have the same access, as a matter of fact I think it was tougher to get accepted into college then, at least that's my impression, colleges seemed to be more selective.  And with what, a ten fold increase in tuition rates since I went in the 80's, there doesn't seem to be an equal improvement in what students receive.  Granted there is inflation, but prices haven't increased 10 fold since the 80's except in health care.

[Quillback]

14 hours ago, Jerry Rapp said:

tuition is up because the federal government encourages it.  Cut out federal assistance and tuition drops until a normal family/student can afford.  I put two through college, and yes, did use federal assistance to help.  One is an anesthesiologist and one is an accountant.  It is politics.  Colleges can charge more because they know they will get it in the end.

Yep and throwing more gubmint money will not bring down tuition rates, they'll increase. 

[grizwilson]

You folks shelling out 40k a year for Mizzou, could you please adopt me? The Estimated cost for Mizzou is $27, 964

https://admissions.missouri.edu/costs/

The estimated cost of Missouri State is $28, 502 http://www.missouristate.edu/costs/undergraduate-costs.htm

So much for the big savings....I have degrees from both schools so not bashing either.  I also know that it can be done for much less if you do not want to mortgage your life. My niece just graduated from Mizzou she lived in a suite with 4 bedrooms each with a private bath a common area kitchen and living space, pool, tennis...nicer than any resort I have ever stayed at. She went to Florida each year on spring break she has a huge loan to repay.  I lived in an old trailer house with roommates,  worked, cut wood anything to make a buck every off hour and break thank God for for Taco Tico 5 tacos for a buck....but no student debt.

[vernon]

In May of 1974 I swore that I would never eat another bite of Hamburger Helper, Ramen noodles or a 7-11 burrito!

And, more importantly, I ain't!

[SpoonDog]

1 hour ago, Quillback said:

Quote

...because tuition is offsetting losses from the state legislature.  If you want college tuition to be what it was when you were in school, I'm encouraging  you in the strongest possible terms to notify your state legislator of that fact.  If you're expecting the same level of education given drastically fewer resources...why?  Why should these students not have the same access to education which you had?

They have the same access, as a matter of fact I think it was tougher to get accepted into college then, at least that's my impression, colleges seemed to be more selective.  And with what, a ten fold increase in tuition rates since I went in the 80's, there doesn't seem to be an equal improvement in what students receive.  Granted there is inflation, but prices haven't increased 10 fold since the 80's except in health care.

Emphasis added.  The increases in tuition aren't adding to Mizzou's budget as much as they're compensating for state cuts.  If the state used to underwrite 30% of the cost but now only underwrites 10%, that leaves 20% that needs to come from somewhere.  The state's shifted that responsibility from themselves to the students, hence the tuition increases.  

Being accepted to college is meaningless if you can't actually afford to go.  I'm still saying academics and work ethic should be the deciding factors, not cost.  A college education isn't the only path to wealth in this country, but historically it's been a pretty reliable one.  It's odd to me that the folks saying not everyone's cut out for college favor a system where it's mostly college-educated folks who can afford to send their kids to school.  

If someone charged me fifty bucks for a concert ticket and charged you five hundred for the same seats, would you still say we have equal access? If I have to work ten hours to pay for my ticket and you have to work fifty hours to pay for your ticket, would you argue we've both worked equally hard for it?  And when the tickets are the same price, and one person's making fifty bucks while the other's making ten, do you really honestly believe they're both equally likely to make the purchase?

And say what you want about government throwing money at universities, that's exactly what they were doing when you were in school.  You're the proof that system works.

[Hazbin]

On 8/23/2017 at 6:37 PM, SpoonDog said:

First off, your kid's not gonna see anything more "radical" at Mizzou that they wouldn't or couldn't see at MO State, or Truman, or SEMO, or anywhere else.  Mizzou's just bigger. The same discussions and protests went on at MSU without impacting enrollment, so the explanatory factor isn't the presence of "liberal protestors."

Campuses run on young people and young people are overwhelmingly liberal.  It's that way now, it was that way in the 1990s it was that way in the 1970s.  Heck, a lot of smaller colleges started out as women's institutions at a time when that was about as radical as you could be.  Despite that Mizzou has 60 religious organizations on campus, young Republicans, ROTC, and who knows what else- it certainly isn't monolithic. 

A public institution like Mizzou has an obligation to foster the education of ALL citizens, even the ones you don't agree with.  And a good university spends as much time teaching students HOW to learn- how to gather and evaluate evidence to make an informed decision, how to construct and deconstruct arguments and think critically about them- as it does teaching students WHAT to learn.  Sometimes that aspect is lost in an effort to churn out more degrees, sometimes it's abused by professors and administrators, sometimes it results in challenging conversations at the Thanksgiving table.  College isn't just supposed to be academically rigorous, it's supposed to be intellectually challenging, as well. 

It's an opportunity to see and learn from other people from other places and socioeconomic backgrounds you may never otherwise engage with.  And if your kid wilts at the prospect of self-reflection, of having ideas challenged...if they can't hack that, they're not ready for college.  They could stand to spend a year or two traveling, volunteering, working a wage gig and meeting all sorts of interesting folks and developing a little character. 

For myself and the kids I went to high school with, choosing a university was the first adult decision we really made.  If parents are making those decisions for their adult children based on perceived ideological leanings of the university as opposed to economic considerations or the institution's quality, let's call it what it is: helicopter parenting.  You're picking for your child based on your politics- at that point it's pretty clearly no longer about the student.  It not only sends the message that you don't trust them to make a decision in their best interest, but that your politics come before their education.

 

 

Spoondog,  I really like this post,  I find myself reading it over and over.  Each time I find it more thought provoking,mind and sole searching  Very well written!

PhD political science,Educator, or trial lawyer??

[Mitch f]

2 hours ago, Hazbin said:

Spoondog,  I really like this post,  I find myself reading it over and over.  Each time I find it more thought provoking,mind and sole searching  Very well written!

PhD political science,Educator, or trial lawyer??

Yep, Spoondog is able to articulate his position very well, he adds quite a bit to this forum.

[Old plug]

i just hope my grands get a scholarship to some fine school. All the potential s there.  They both stated reading at the age of 4. All any of us parents or grand parents need to do is see that this really fouled up world does not infect them in any way. 

[Al Agnew]

I'll agree totally with Spoondog.  A huge point of actually going to college is to broaden your horizons.  I know mine were greatly broadened in the 1970s when I attended Southeast Missouri, not then nor now known as a liberal university.  I grew up in a small town that was not many years past being a "sunset town", one where there was a sign at the city limits that warned black people they weren't welcome after sundown.  I was just as racist in my views in high school as anybody else in town--one black girl in the whole school, and she lived in the other town that made up the consolidated school district.  She was not treated too badly, but she didn't have friends.  My first real exposure to black people was when I went to college, and I soon lost my racist views completely, when i realized that black people were just people like me.  Got to know them, made friends, and made myself a better person for it.  Not to mention...it was also my first real exposure to what a few years previously would have been called hippies, found out that some of them were good, smart people, others weren't, just like the people I'd always known.  Found I respected a lot of their views.  And got my first real exposure to environmentalism, and became an ardent environmentalist.  Got my first real exposure to drugs, totally rejected the whole culture because of some of the good parts of my upbringing.

I'm not a parent.  If I was giving Spoondog's helicopter parents advice, it would be that you CAN'T shelter your kid forever from "bad" influences.  Once they go away to college, no matter where, you have to trust in the job YOU did bringing them up that they won't go off the deep end either politically or socially.  And maybe, like me, hope that the broadening of their horizons actually corrects some of the mistakes you made parenting them.