nutritional forage for Bass (and other minnow eating fish)

[tjm]

 So are you against all tournament fishing? Or just when the method is not the one you chose?

[MoCarp]

13 minutes ago, tjm said:

When it comes to talking about the money in recreational fishing, tournament fishing and such like I am opposed to it all. 

I am not a big Tourney fan ether

 

15 minutes ago, tjm said:

Carp on flies fishermen indicate that crawdads are one of their favorite foods. Til you get some one at masters/doctorate level to study crawdads and carp devastation of them I will blame carp for the loss of my local mudbugs, 

you can blame carp all you want, they are used to being the scape goat to a variety of ills...but the bulk of common carp's diet is plant matter, being an omnivore they will eat a crawfish that scoots away while they are foraging, even slurp a mayfly emerging on the surface.....I have even seen them scavenge fish scraps from areas where people clean fish, in lakes where they occur, zebra mussels are a major component of a carp's diet, but if you fished in a carpy area with a big crawdad on your hook and 2 foot away boiled field corn..the corn would out produce the crawfish 100-1..how do I know? Tried many times to get the carp bait of all baits....perhaps a corn fly???? or this time of year an acorn fly....

 

26 minutes ago, tjm said:

we had 10# carp in this creek for 20-30 years, may still have, idk. Last one I saw caught (12#+) was on a crawdad about 15 years ago but I haven't fished it much since then to know.

Sorry Tim those carp were there long before your time, and long before your daddy, even long before you grandfather..and certainly long before the loss of the little crustaceans, Because Common Carp were, stocked on purpose starting In 1877, by the U.S. Fish Commission

The common carp are still stocked by many state agencies, heres one in AZ that stocked 70k carp bought from a fish hatchery in Arkansas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oaHLMmaC_E  <--tempe Town Lake, AZ

 

[MOPanfisher]

35 minutes ago, MoCarp said:

 

Picture looks like somebody shot a pile of big buffalo and one redneck.  Don't what the limit on us rednecks is.

[Johnsfolly]

4 minutes ago, MOPanfisher said:

Picture looks like somebody shot a pile of big buffalo and one redneck.  Don't what the limit on us rednecks is.

In Missouri the limit is six !

[tjm]

Thought you said yourself that they didn't live well/reproduce in these streams?

5 minutes ago, MoCarp said:

SorryTim those carp were there long before your time, and long before your daddy, even long before you grandfather..and certainly long before the loss of the little crustaceans, Because Common Carp were, stocked on purpose starting In 1877, by the U.S. Fish Commission

May be hard to believe but I think you are wrong about this because old people commented "where did them things come from?" and "I saw the biggest fish yesterday and don't know it was"

It is true though that some NY politician got carp imported and stocked so his hatchery buddies could make money from the guberment.  It is true that carp were widely stocked for many years, it is not true that carp were stocked in every body of water in the USA and like the other german the trout they were often stocked in places that they did not survive.

 The Mississippi is not actually even a concern of mine, whatever is right or wrong with it is the fault of several states so blame Minnesota and Illinois. I did read some place that Mississippi river commercial fishermen killed and sold a ton or two carp every year'

Have fun with your campaign. And if you go after all tournaments, so that every fish put in the boat has to be killed and removed from the site for consumption, I be there to vote for that. 

[MoCarp]

2 hours ago, tjm said:

Thought you said yourself that they didn't live well/reproduce in these streams?

May be hard to believe but I think you are wrong about this because old people commented "where did them things come from?" and "I saw the biggest fish yesterday and don't know it was"

It is true though that some NY politician got carp imported and stocked so his hatchery buddies could make money from the guberment.  It is true that carp were widely stocked for many years, it is not true that carp were stocked in every body of water in the USA and like the other german the trout they were often stocked in places that they did not survive.

 The Mississippi is not actually even a concern of mine, whatever is right or wrong with it is the fault of several states so blame Minnesota and Illinois. I did read some place that Mississippi river commercial fishermen killed and sold a ton or two carp every year'

Have fun with your campaign. And if you go after all tournaments, so that every fish put in the boat has to be killed and removed from the site for consumption, I be there to vote for that. 

<--hands Tim a drink of his choice.......Common carp seem less adapted to a Ozark type stream, they are there... but you will catch more redhorse, buffs and other suckers more..at least the ones I have fished..are they in the streams?...yes sir...

Not sure about NY politicians wheeling and dealing but Julius A. Poppe from California was the earliest carp importer...

not going after any tourneys.....a wonderful day fishing, nice weather, a few big fish, beautiful scenery.......

[SpoonDog]

On 10/18/2017 at 1:00 PM, MoCarp said:

If several of Taneys Trout Guides tell you trout fishing has become horrible, and has been getting worse, and they spend over 300 days a year on the water, because they think a huge catch and kill trout tourney each year where 287k pounds of trout are killed  in ONE WEEKEND,  its like saying all the crappie harvested on TR from on weekend tourney is the whole harvest number when its 100 fold......it is disingenuous of you to poo poo those carp guides observations, even though anecdotal, come from years of on the water observations

There could be ten additional anglers for each one participating in the tourney, or ten thousand- it wouldn't matter.  There could be an additional thousand anglers added year over year, and it wouldn't matter.  If there are more fish being removed from the system than what's being recorded, you'd expect a stronger relationship, a more severe decline in pounds of fish harvested per year.  The Texas folks said alligator gar were being overharvested because there's fewer of them now than there were previously.  I hate to sound like a broken record- but you can't make that claim with carp, because the conclusion isn't drawn from the evidence. 

I trust you're a reasonable guy, MOCarp- that's why I'm sure you and I can agree that if you asked ten anglers "How's the fishing?" you may get a very different response than if you asked ten thousand.  Nearly seven thousand teams- I'm assuming there's multiple people on a team- have participated in that tourney over the past thirty years.  We're talking ten thousand people, easy.  Yet the only evidence that matters is the testimony of a handful of carp fishing guides?  Your position requires us to believe their opinion is worth a hundred times more than anyone else's.  Ignoring the experience of all those other people means we're doing exactly what you don't think we should- dismissing people's anecdotal evidence.  I'm not the one being disingenuous. 

You're not distinguishing between good information and bad information based on the quality of the information.  You're distinguishing between good and bad information based on whether it supports or contradicts your preordained position.  This is just the most recent example. 

[SpoonDog]

Carp bioaccumulate all sorts of nasty heavy metals- Cadmium, Lead, Chromium, and Nickel.

PCB contaminated carp were fed to mink, resulting in impaired reproduction and survival of mink offspring.

Common carp bioaccumulate PCBs in Lake Eerie, with the oldest adult males having the highest concentrations.

Carp bioaccumulate Lead and Arsenic. 

Carp in the upper Mississippi River accumulate Scotch Guard, among other things. 

Carp accumulate flame retardants. 

Carp accumulate DDT

Carp accumulate Mercury.

 

Maybe the reason it's so tough to find things that'll eat carp does have something to do with nutrition after all.  Maybe the best thing we could do for the systems where these guys are found is remove 300,000 lbs of them at a time.

[MoCarp]

2 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

 I hate to sound like a broken record- but you can't make that claim with carp, because the conclusion isn't drawn from the evidence. 

I know that the MI fisheries people are looking into it....perhaps the MDC will as well..

 

2 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

I trust you're a reasonable guy, MOCarp- that's why I'm sure you and I can agree that if you asked ten anglers "How's the fishing?" you may get a very different response than if you asked ten thousand.  Nearly seven thousand teams- I'm assuming there's multiple people on a team- have participated in that tourney over the past thirty years.  We're talking ten thousand people, easy.  Yet the only evidence that matters is the testimony of a handful of carp fishing guides?  Your position requires us to believe their opinion is worth a hundred times more than anyone else's.  Ignoring the experience of all those other people means we're doing exactly what you don't think we should- dismissing people's anecdotal evidence.  I'm not the one being disingenuous. 

I agree that more quanatative data is needed, other than just observational, here is what I'd like to see for that event, all fish shot per team turned in, and each weighed measured, and the largest fish an otolith ear bone removed and ages of the biggest fish taken, random stomach sampling..considering how many fish that would be...its a daunting task... you would need an army of people to do it... if you could even do it..considering a 12# avg thats about 24k fish! one reason the fisheries people don't want that back breaking job...if I was organizing that event it would take 15, 3 person teams all with measuring cradles and scales two lifting measuring and weighing and one logging data including the general area where the fish where taken.....and rotating so each person wasn't wore out....over 3 years you would know what was up....I remember how helpful the Bfers were in the beginning on the state of Oklahoma's Alligator Gar studies..until they realized that the data would be used to restrict harvest of the mammoth fish....then they clammed up....would be interesting how the Bfing community would react to such close scrutiny....being from Missouri, I'd say show me the numbers

 

3 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

You're not distinguishing between good information and bad information based on the quality of the information.  You're distinguishing between good and bad information based on whether it supports or contradicts your preordained position.  This is just the most recent example. 

Before the growth of the Branson area and increase of pressure on trout, it was common to catch a limit of trout measured in pounds not inches, I personally have had many a limit avg 4 pounds....over time the sizes got smaller and smaller....then as they investigated the fish were being removed before they could grow to sizes people had come to expect..plenty of food..just needed more grow time....new regs came into effect...still keeping people happy, those that want to keep some fish for dinner, but turn loose some to get much bigger....now the triploid trout to get bigger faster..who doesn't want to catch more and bigger fish?.....I will tell you since the big Bfing growth the fish....I fish for, are fewer and smaller.....I had a friend that had started guiding people fly fishing here for commons...that potential business died when the big Bfing events started here...over time the fishery will collapse, any over harvest will do that, its been proven all over the world..big and small waters alike.

 

2 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

Carp bioaccumulate all sorts of nasty heavy metals- Cadmium, Lead, Chromium, and Nickel.

PCB contaminated carp were fed to mink, resulting in impaired reproduction and survival of mink offspring.

Common carp bioaccumulate PCBs in Lake Eerie, with the oldest adult males having the highest concentrations.

Carp bioaccumulate Lead and Arsenic. 

Carp in the upper Mississippi River accumulate Scotch Guard, among other things. 

Carp accumulate flame retardants. 

Carp accumulate DDT

Carp accumulate Mercury.

 

Maybe the reason it's so tough to find things that'll eat carp does have something to do with nutrition after all.  Maybe the best thing we could do for the systems where these guys are found is remove 300,000 lbs of them at a time.

One I wouldn't eat anything from there not even a walleye yet people eat tons of fish..,..unsure if any fish are still commercially harvested anymore, salmon, lake trout, walleyes all used to be harvested,  Lake Michigan is a very big expanse of water...with knowledge... the limits of sustainability can be understood..so many waters in the US have been obliterated by over harvest and habitat degradation..in they native waters of eastern Europe common carp are becoming a species of concern...those waters are biome-ically speaking, are much like the great lakes...In closing more anglers chase common carp than do Muskies...few fish can rival the distribution on common carp in North America, the potential of Euro Style angling economically is incredible and sustainable....

[SpoonDog]

50 minutes ago, MoCarp said:

I know that the MI fisheries people are looking into it....perhaps the MDC will as well..

They are?  Because the information you provided us says they're not:

The Department of Natural Resources says there’s no direct link between bowfishing and low numbers of carp in Grand Traverse Bay. Scott Heintzleman – a fisheries biologist for the DNR – says a lot of environmental factors like rising water levels could make the carp go to new areas.   It came from here, which is the link you provided us. 

 

Quote

 here is what I'd like to see for that event, all fish shot per team turned in, and each weighed measured, and the largest fish an otolith ear bone removed and ages of the biggest fish taken, random stomach sampling

Why?  Thirty hours ago you were convinced the only think we need is the word of a couple carp guides, so what's changed?  If our question is "do bowfishers cause declines in carp populations?" then how many fish each person shot doesn't matter.  How big each one was doesn't matter.  How old the biggest one was doesn't matter.  What any of them were eating doesn't matter.  All that matters is how many you're killing each year, and whether that number is going up or down.  Practically all of that information can be collected from a dumpster full of dead fish, so it isn't that hard.  But that isn't the point: you're spending time and resources collecting information which has no bearing on the question.   If you think this information is critically important to answering your questions, then we also need to be measuring every fish caught by carp guides, weighing each fish captured, extracting an otolith from each carp they catch, ,and conducting random stomach sampling.  That way they're directly comparable, and there's no bias.  Write it up, get it funded, and I'll endorse it 100%. 

Quote

...now the triploid trout to get bigger faster..who doesn't want to catch more and bigger fish?

Me! I don't!  If it's gonna wreck the ecosystem, I don't want to catch more and bigger fish!  I'm sure there's folks who'd like more and bigger hogs, more and bigger pythons in the Everglades, but they share a planet with seven billion other folks who shouldn't have to sacrifice environmental quality so some subset can get their f'in rocks off.  If common carp were some native species maligned unnecessarily and being pushed towards decline, I'd be the first to leap to their cause.  They're not, and I have no interest in pretending they are.  There's just too many native species with really restricted ranges and really serious conservation concerns for me to make believe a species which occurs (invasively) on every continent save Antarctica is in desperate need of my attention.  Carp in eastern Europe might be imperiled- they can worry about that in eastern Europe.  It isn't my problem.  No one sheds a tear because a billion zebra mussels are scraped from boat hulls and power plants a day.  Three-hundred sixty six thousand pounds of lake trout were removed from Yellowstone this year; maybe some argue they're a trophy opportunity but that has to be weighed against the cost.  Yeah, yeah, carp have been around 140 years- that just means there's no 170 year old fishermen around to tell us what things were like way back when.   There's no frame of reference.  Nothing to compare post-carp with.  It's as silly as arguing Chestnut Blight isn't an issue because no one can remember what forests used to look like. 

Money isn't unlimited.  Resources aren't unlimited.  You yourself identify those limitations.  Not even a century ago everything- not just common carp- was completely unregulated.  Fished, gigged, netted, shocked with phone boxes, dynamited.  People have been trying to get rid of these things for 140 years.  They've been throwing them on the bank for 140 years.  They're still around, they're still abundant, they still get big, they're still caught regularly.  I'm supposed to pretend they're in imminent danger?

Quote

One I wouldn't eat anything from there not even a walleye yet people eat tons of fish.

Unless you're a six-foot tall walking, talking, typing mink, it isn't relevant.  A sixty pound carp full of heavy metals, caught and released, eventually dies, rots, and releases those heavy metals back into the ecosystem.  Or it's scavenged by catfish, mink, turtles, eagles...and it poisons the next generation.  If you put that sixty pound carp in a dumpster and it goes to a landfill, those heavy metals or other pollutants aren't put back into the ecosystem when it dies and rots.