What Factors influence the Smallmouth population

[tjm]

The condition of the signs is an important comment, by far most signs I've seen at MDC areas are  deteriorated, some unreadable. One area they could make improvement. Have a periodic check & replacement of signs. Some signs appear to get vandalized too, I see a board with just nails and a bit of yellow plastic. 

[Smalliebigs]

1 hour ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

 I totally understand that and can appreciate that.  But you're going to have to face the fact that you are the parents of an ugly baby.  No parent wants to admit it but we all know sometimes it's true. 

 There are many factors that come into play that made it more favorable for spotted bass than it has smallmouth.  And land use practices does not mean just those along the stream bank.  It can be from many miles away. 

 There has been a major amount of urban sprawl over the decades in the lower Meramec River basin.  Each little ravine and spring creek, whether running or dry,  is a blood vessel feeding to the main artery.  Every time a lawn or golf course it's fertilized,  every time somebody dumped oil,  every time it snows and chemicals are put on the roads,  every time it just rains and washes off all the roads and ground clutter,  it all flows to the stream.  There is nothing healthy about that.  It doesn't matter what the habitat is. 

 When you add that up with everything else I mentioned in my previous post you wonder how anything survives.  But you don't have to believe me and you don't have to believe the MDC.  But it's true you have an ugly baby. 

Yep....its true look at this ugly mut

 

[snagged in outlet 3]

The fish is ugly too!!

[Trout Addict]

I'm not much into small mouth fishing. But I've kinda been following along. So here's my dime. It Sounds like they're several variables, but when I read Urban sprawl ding ding ding alarms started going off In my head. The river where I caught most of my smallies, I saw lots of foam. 

I've treated industrial waste water and drinking water. So when I saw the foam and not necessarily from flow, I'm thinking dang, why is this Water so high in phosphates. Phosphates are found in several chemical compounds such as soaps and fertilizers. 

My guess is with Urban Sprawl there's new subdivision and therefore new roads with storm sewers. These storm sewers typically dumps into the closest drainage ditch. And a direct route into the river. Phosphates is not the only chemical compounds that can enter the river threw these storm sewers. My experience says these Home owners in these subdivision tend to upscale and proud of their investment, so they not only use fertilizers, but also herbicide and pesticides which could leach out during rainfall events. Green spaces and wetlands can act as filters to help slow the process.

It really doesn't matter how they got there, imo, They are there and it sounds like you're looking for ways to improve your fishery.

One other note in regards to leaching of fertilizers (ie phosphates) into your fishery, it adds lots of nutrients to the water which may be why your spots are thriving where smallies use to.

 

[Dan Kreher]

2 hours ago, tjm said:

The condition of the signs is an important comment, by far most signs I've seen at MDC areas are  deteriorated, some unreadable. One area they could make improvement. Have a periodic check & replacement of signs. Some signs appear to get vandalized too, I see a board with just nails and a bit of yellow plastic. 

Absent vandalism of MDC signs, I'd estimate that the special regs signage -- be it for Smallmouth in those regs areas or for Spots in Meramec basin -- last for several years at an access point. Many will fade with weathering particularly if they have a Southern exposure. Our newer, colorful MSA signage still looks good after about 3 years depending on where posted. Keeping signage in good shape at access points is difficult at best. Flooding, vandalism, urgent need for firewood -- all come into play for any structures at these oftentimes remote access points. We've been fairly lucky that our MSA signage has held up as good as it has since we began posting the updated signs back in 2012.

As part of the updated smallmouth regulations enacted in March of this year, the MDC was supposed to be updating its regulations signage for stream access points. So far, I've not seen any re-designed signage at any MDC accesses, but admittedly, I've not visited nearly as many of those sites as in years past. MO Smallmouth Alliance will check in with the MDC Fisheries Chief to inquire about where they sit on this initiative and report back to the Forum readers once I hear something from them.

Personally, I was a bit too miffed on how the MDC handled their withdrawal of the proposed SMB special regs stretch on Current River last year to be overly concerned with new signage. However, those hard feelings have since dissipated given the new regs water we did actually receive on Big, Meramec, Big Piney and Jacks Fork. So we soldier on. 

 

 

 

 

[Gavin]

You bring up a good point Trout Addict. Populations in towns like St. Clair, Washington, & Union have have probably doubled doubled in my lifetime. All that runoff ends up in the river eventually.

. 

[Trout Addict]

1 hour ago, Gavin said:

You bring up a good point Trout Addict. Populations in towns like St. Clair, Washington, & Union have have probably doubled doubled in my lifetime. All that runoff ends up in the river eventually.

. 

Has the water chemistry change? What I mean has the water color change? It's been my experience that Water high in nutrients tends to have a green tint. This will also promote more weeds growth. Have you seen an increase in weeds, moss and algae in areas where the spots now reside?

[timinmo]

Some of the water chemistry can be seen on the interactive part of the Missouri Stream Team site.  I will provide a link.  There have been other tests done by Volunteer Water Quality Monitors.  Some of this is available but some is waiting to be published.

http://mdcgis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=7c138e6907dc438d8ecad5eb212e8560

http://www.mostreamteam.org/aims_wqmselect-NEW/select_stactivity.asp?LOC_NUM=3237

I hope one of those work I am not the most computer literate person.

[MoCarp]

6 hours ago, Flysmallie said:

Just make sure that signage states that these fish must be consumed. We are going to have a real problem if people are going to start advocating tossing game fish on the bank. And I mean a serious problem. You can waste your time within the rules. 

I think Missouri has a wanton waste law..its not enforced much buffalo and carp are commonly tossed on the bank...and you have made a good point

perhaps donated signage by MO Smallmouth Alliance??? be a great social to get some together and put up signs in partnership with the MDC or local Government

4 hours ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

 face the fact that you are the parents of an ugly baby.  No parent wants to admit it but we all know sometimes it's true. 

 love it

1 hour ago, Trout Addict said:

I'm not much into small mouth fishing. But I've kinda been following along. So here's my dime. It Sounds like they're several variables, but when I read Urban sprawl ding ding ding alarms started going off In my head. The river where I caught most of my smallies, I saw lots of foam. 

I've treated industrial waste water and drinking water. So when I saw the foam and not necessarily from flow, I'm thinking dang, why is this Water so high in phosphates. Phosphates are found in several chemical compounds such as soaps and fertilizers. 

My guess is with Urban Sprawl there's new subdivision and therefore new roads with storm sewers. These storm sewers typically dumps into the closest drainage ditch. And a direct route into the river. Phosphates is not the only chemical compounds that can enter the river threw these storm sewers. My experience says these Home owners in these subdivision tend to upscale and proud of their investment, so they not only use fertilizers, but also herbicide and pesticides which could leach out during rainfall events. Green spaces and wetlands can act as filters to help slow the process.

It really doesn't matter how they got there, imo, They are there and it sounds like you're looking for ways to improve your fishery.

One other note in regards to leaching of fertilizers (ie phosphates) into your fishery, it adds lots of nutrients to the water which may be why your spots are thriving where smallies use to.

 

pet poop...and any other septic issues.....weeds suck up a lot of those nutrients yet we have very little in our waters.......wildly fluctuating water levels and rock bottom composition limits that...I hate to say it but there may in time be a silver lining in critters like zebra mussels 

 

[Trout Addict]

19 minutes ago, timinmo said:

Some of the water chemistry can be seen on the interactive part of the Missouri Stream Team site.  I will provide a link.  There have been other tests done by Volunteer Water Quality Monitors.  Some of this is available but some is waiting to be published.

http://mdcgis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=7c138e6907dc438d8ecad5eb212e8560

http://www.mostreamteam.org/aims_wqmselect-NEW/select_stactivity.asp?LOC_NUM=3237

I hope one of those work I am not the most computer literate person.

The 1st one appears to be an interactive database. It may take some time for me to understand it. 

The second one is an incomplete, imo. Nitrates, ammonia, chloride and a good baseline would be good to have, imo. The turbidity seems kinda high, but idk without a baseline.