Water Level

[fishinwrench]

5 hours ago, rangerz21 said:

Not arguing the point with you appreciate your explanation understand flood control but also understand common sense and sometimes i wonder if the people making these decisions understand it.

I have had zero training in managing flood control thru hydro electric dams, but I am 100% confident that I could do a better job of it.  

Hell the last generation of ACOE and GE higher-ups handled it just fine, even through the floods of '93-'95, and never to my memory had everyone perplexed about what in the holy f*** they were doing.

I guess the question to ask is.....What factor is involved now that makes us "dumbasses" have concerns about the retardedness level of the ones in charge these days?     Surely there is something that us regular people just don't know.....and why does that something have to be a secret?   

[Jerry Rapp]

ah, 1993.  Fished a tournament the last weekend of September at LOZ.  Fished a buzzbait around Satellite dishes in Proctor Creek, had a good tournament.  Left there and then went to Stockton for a week for a year end tournament.  25 feet high.  Won a boat fishing Johnson Grass on a hill top.  The 25 foot rise made the lake a level playing field, and with 5 days to practice I felt like a local!  Good memories.

[MOPanfisher]

FW, I have been at my share of those meetings.  Please post up anything said at those meetings that are opposed to what I have said. Also PLEASE call Ameren and ask them about how much of an effect they have on Truman Releases.

[fishinwrench]

4 hours ago, MOPanfisher said:

FW, I have been at my share of those meetings.  Please post up anything said at those meetings that are opposed to what I have said. Also PLEASE call Ameren and ask them about how much of an effect they have on Truman Releases.

During the meeting they said "We can't release any more water at this time because LO can't take it", and at that time LO was at 658.6 (over a foot below full pool...but it was still on a slow rise from tributary inflow).  

When Bagnell can't drop a flood gate, allegedly because of the St.Thomas level, and LO is near their 660 panic level....then Lake O DOES MATTER and it is absolutely a factor that the ACOE considers before dropping flood gates at Truman.   It shouldn't be, but it is.   It's BS that the Lake O economy and the threat of some dock damage trumps dam safety, Truman area economy, and Truman's ability to do what it was designed to do in the first place, but that's an undisputable fact.    Lake O didn't have a problem maintaining 660ish year round even before Truman dam existed.....but now they act like it's a giant hurdle to overcome.     Just seems rediculous to me.

[MOPanfisher]

It wasn't lake O it was the st thomas level that prevented releases sorry.  Maybe I should clarify the difference between a control point and balance curves.  The 2 (and only 2) control points are the St Thomas gauge on he osage and Herman gauge on the Missouri.  When either of those two points go above a certain point releases that affect it are stopped, thus LOZ would have to stop releasing as well, and it goes back up the drainage basin.  Now however there are balance curves as well.  Let's say there was a massive rain that affected Pomme and Stockton but not Truman, both Pomme and Stockton could still release into truman (also I believe Melvern and Pomona?) until Truman hits a certain balance level, based upon % of storage capacity in each resevoir.  At that time all the lakes have to hold what they have and balance the system until the two control points drop below flood stage allowing for releases from the entire system.  What gets difficult to predict is the MO river, they have to account for everything that is coming down all the way to Gavin Point, that takes time for that water to get to the control point, so if there is flooding north and west in the MO basin they have to take those levels into account and make an estimate on when it will get there and not allow for releases from the Osage basin to overwhelm or use up what is available in the MO river.  Once st thomas drops, bagnell opens up and the ability to release rills up stream, if Bagnell can release 100k  cfs through their gates then so can truman, and the lakes upstream from that can begin releases also as long as everyone stays within the balance curve.  When a single massive rainfall event happens it is fairly routine to hold everyone until the level on the rivers drop and then begin to evacuate the system, but when event after vent after event happens it tends to overwhelm the system, you go from jugfling 3 things to juggling 7 or so and the guys in he resevoir Control center put in a lot of hours trying to calculate rainfall, when and how fast it falls, how fast runs off etc. 

Now if you want to debate things like levees, flooding property to protect other property and whethwr or not Truman was bult to protect LOZ, well let's ice down some refreshments and discuss.  I have been around it for too many years to simply let some things go by without trying to educate folks.  It is NOT a perfect system by any means, there are too many variables, there are regylatuons put in place which don't allow for too many whims and the guys who make the calculations and decisions are some of the most conscientious guys I know about doing their jobs well and within the regulations, its not uncomon to get calls in the middle of the night, so yeah I get protective of them sometimes.

[MOPanfisher]

Dang it FW you drew me into this topic like I was a white bass coming up a creek to spawn and spotted one of your streamers.

For clarification:  Control Points determine if water can be released from the system, in our case the Osage Basin.  If the control points are low enough to allow for release then LOZ can release, generate or store it.  What we try to not do is dump additional water into an already flooded lake or river, so if a storm hits and only affects LOZ we aren't going to exacerbate flooding if it isn't necessary.  I wish I could remember what bagnells release capability, something like 300k but not sure.  

Balance curves strive to balance the amount of (again think % of flood storage capacity) within between lakes.  I certainly hope for a normal year (whatever that is) so we can argue about whether or not the while bass in LOZ are cross bred mutts, and I can catch crappie until my hands are too sore to continue, and my shoulder aches, and I am sick of fresh crappie fillets. (That may take a while as I have an ability to eat them almost daily with no problem).

[3DHUSKER]

3 hours ago, MOPanfisher said:

It wasn't lake O it was the st thomas level that prevented releases sorry.  Maybe I should clarify the difference between a control point and balance curves.  The 2 (and only 2) control points are the St Thomas gauge on he osage and Herman gauge on the Missouri.  When either of those two points go above a certain point releases that affect it are stopped, thus LOZ would have to stop releasing as well, and it goes back up the drainage basin.  Now however there are balance curves as well.  Let's say there was a massive rain that affected Pomme and Stockton but not Truman, both Pomme and Stockton could still release into truman (also I believe Melvern and Pomona?) until Truman hits a certain balance level, based upon % of storage capacity in each resevoir.  At that time all the lakes have to hold what they have and balance the system until the two control points drop below flood stage allowing for releases from the entire system.  What gets difficult to predict is the MO river, they have to account for everything that is coming down all the way to Gavin Point, that takes time for that water to get to the control point, so if there is flooding north and west in the MO basin they have to take those levels into account and make an estimate on when it will get there and not allow for releases from the Osage basin to overwhelm or use up what is available in the MO river.  Once st thomas drops, bagnell opens up and the ability to release rills up stream, if Bagnell can release 100k  cfs through their gates then so can truman, and the lakes upstream from that can begin releases also as long as everyone stays within the balance curve.  When a single massive rainfall event happens it is fairly routine to hold everyone until the level on the rivers drop and then begin to evacuate the system, but when event after vent after event happens it tends to overwhelm the system, you go from jugfling 3 things to juggling 7 or so and the guys in he resevoir Control center put in a lot of hours trying to calculate rainfall, when and how fast it falls, how fast runs off etc. 

Now if you want to debate things like levees, flooding property to protect other property and whethwr or not Truman was bult to protect LOZ, well let's ice down some refreshments and discuss.  I have been around it for too many years to simply let some things go by without trying to educate folks.  It is NOT a perfect system by any means, there are too many variables, there are regylatuons put in place which don't allow for too many whims and the guys who make the calculations and decisions are some of the most conscientious guys I know about doing their jobs well and within the regulations, its not uncomon to get calls in the middle of the night, so yeah I get protective of them sometimes.

Makes complete sense and is pretty much common sense.  What makes no sense is rehashing something that is the way it is and not going to change.  Life is to short to get worked up over my lake your lake water levels. Thanks for the explanation MOP.

[fishinwrench]

2 hours ago, MOPanfisher said:

  I wish I could remember what bagnells release capability, something like 300k but not sure.

The release capability of Bagnell depends on the level of the lake at that given time.  They can drop 12 floodgates 5' below the elevation of 660 msl 

So dropping them 2' at 659 is gonna pass the same amount of water as dropping them 1' at 660

The water breeches the floodgates at 667 (I think)

[MOPanfisher]

1 hour ago, fishinwrench said:

The release capability of Bagnell depends on the level of the lake at that given time.  They can drop 12 floodgates 5' below the elevation of 660 msl 

So dropping them 2' at 659 is gonna pass the same amount of water as dropping them 1' at 660

The water breeches the floodgates at 667 (I think)

Oh I fully understand that max capacity is related to head pressure, usually max is stated for top of the pool or at a specific elevation.  One or two feet of elevation doesn't make a huge change but yes it does affect it, but in no universe is releasing 2 feet of water at 659 going to be the same as 1 foot at 660, not even close.  I am going to caveat that by saying I don't know exactly how bagnells gates are made/operate.

[fishinwrench]

9 minutes ago, MOPanfisher said:

but in no universe is releasing 2 feet of water at 659 going to be the same as 1 foot at 660, not even close.

Um, dropping the gates 2' at 659 is exactly the same amount of water as dropping 1' at 660.   

Either way your gate is 1' below the surface of the water.   

I mean.....Duh!  🙄