tanvat

And he shot "fearing a potential threat" when it looked at them from down below. Good grief, it that's all it takes I should have shot the bear on the Jacks Fork a few years back, several out West while out hiking, and about 25 random dogs.

The pictures tell you all you need to know; zero respect. Its fools like this that can give hunting a bad name.

1. Ditto on the Buffalo. Never floated the lower, and my family and I are going to do it early this summer. Fly fish and catch a few smallies as part of the experience. See #3! 2. Golden Trout in Wyoming. Hiked a ton in the Wind Rivers over the year and this year am going to zero in on some goldens in a remote basin that takes some want to to get to; not too many more years of being able to do that. 3. Start focusing on flyfishing for smallies instead of Mo. trout. 4. Go back and float the Green River in Utah and enjoy miles of textbook hopper banks in Sept. A good 2024 fishing year to all. I know I've got to get it while I can still walk and see; I've- discovered I'm not getting younger!

It is ridiculous the NPS took nearly a decade to come to the grand conclusion that 60 HP jets are appropriate on the the Current above Two Rivers - or, for that matter, anywhere in ONSR. So everyone can have "access," may as well let ATVs drive up the Thorofare in Yellowstone (its flat) or on the trails at Hawn. It certainly satisfies a vocal minority of river users, but it certainly doesn't respect the resource. Don't get me wrong, I've come across some great, nice people on jets on the Current and 11-pt - probably including some members on this forum. I've seen families out and about having a great time on their jets while party floaters cause a ruckus and behave like complete POS. The party floaters descend on on maybe a dozen Saturdays a year from 9 - 5 and are then mostly gone. But a couple (or 20) 60 HP jets blasting up and down the river all day, every day is just incompatible with what should be the crown jewel of the Missouri outdoors. It allows a single person, no matter how nice and respectful they are, to have the impact of dozens of obnoxious floaters. Its like the difference between someone walking down the sidewalk and a train rolling down the tracks. Oh well, it is what is. It will come down to people's capacity for respect and self-restraint which, sadly, is lacking.

This is the second autumn in a row I've had the good fortune to do a DIY float, fish, and camp on the Green River below Flaming Gorge Reservoir near Dutch John, UT. Its a well-known float that gets a well-deserved rap for being a zoo in the summer. But, by mid-September, the crowds have largely disappeared and truly great trip is there for the taking. This year, we skipped the fabled "A Section" and floated the "B" and "C" sections below Little Hole down through Browns Park. Saw just a handful of boats in three days - pretty awesome for one of the more popular rivers in the West. The "C" section has a lower trout population than the upper river, but that just means there are a lot of browns instead of ridiculous numbers of fish. As the attached pics show, at around 2000 cfs, there are miles of picture perfect grasshopper, ant, and beetle banks along the lower parts that are tailor-made for drift boat or raft. And its an easy float, with exception of Red Creek Rapids about 5 miles below Little Hole, which is a legit Class III that takes some care. If you can routinely put an ant or hopper within 6 inches of the grass (even closer is better) from at least 40' away, then you will catch fish. Those fish are in some super shallow water and they just emerge from that grass as if from nowhere. You'll usually find some BWO sippers and good streamer fishing in the evening or if its cloudy. The floating, fishing, scenery, and camping make for a truly great 2 or even 3 night trip. Its no secret, so I've got no problem recommending it as a trip to do at least once - highly recommended.

Jet boats are fine in a few circumstances, like say the tailwaters, the very lower Current, or a reservoir. They should have no place on the upper and middle Current and Eleven Point, just as they aren't allowed on the Buffalo. The reasons are the same. Only a relatively few places are so unique and beautiful that they are last best places. Places like, say, our national parks, which what the ONSR is. Or National Forest wilderness areas and even our state parks. Should we have ATVs at Hawn or in the Yellowstone backcountry? I think (hope?) most people would say no, but I'd wager some of the most ardent jet boaters (and a lot of party floaters) would be all in for that because, after all, who is to say how someone else enjoys themselves? The fact is we allow jet boats and ATVs all up and down the Current and other rivers to satisfy a very small fraction of river users who cause a massively disproportionate impact on the resource. Aside from the resource impact, there is a cultural impact. When the rivers are seen as simply a conduit for thrill-seeking or vodka chugging (like the party floaters), no one really give a crap about the rivers themselves because they are focused - like toddlers - on what they want to do right now with little to no capacity for responsible self-restraint in the interest of something beyond the immediate satisfaction of seeing how fast they can fly up a 6" deep riffle or because they want to fish 5 miles up for 15 minutes before fishing 4 miles down 30 minutes later. A generalization? You bet; because its generally true.

I have no doubt jetboats cause bank erosion on Ozark streams. I see it every time I go floating/fishing. Every time. Jet goes by, waves lash the bank and you can see the cloudy and sometimes muddy water along the bank. Look close and you can see the linear erosion lines. Been down this road before, and I know lots of forum users are avid jet boaters, but jets or anything beyond the 5 hp putt putts down on the Buffalo have no place on most stretches of most Ozark streams. The ONLY reason is personal convenience and whim. Its like having ATVs in Yellowstone....then again, lots of folks would probably go for that. Sure, the hordes of party floaters don't help matters either, but that doesn't justify jets at Akers Ferry, Scotts Ford, etc.

Budman, I'm sorry for the late reply - just saw this topic. The Winds are phenomenal. I've had the good fortune to spend several weeks backpacking/fishing the Winds over a number of years. I've got to backpack and fish in Colorado, Yellowstone, the Beartooths in MT, all around Jackson Hole, WY and the Winds are the best place I've ever been for hiking/fishing period. The total experience of the scenery, remoteness and fishing is hard to beat and if you can go, go and go for as long as possible. Mid to late August is ideal from the perspective minimal mosquitos. Fishing should be good too. Here are some recommendations from trips I've done that are great for a 5 night trip - though 5 nights is a bare minimum to access the core of the range unless you're in top physical condition. Before doing any of these trips I'd alot at least one day camping near the trailhead to give your body time to adjust to the altitude. Also, the Pinedale Outdoor Shop in Pinedale, WY offers shuttles b/t trailheads so you can do a point to point hike that can open up more terrain in a shorter timeframe - plan on a $125.00 or so for this service. Worth it in my opinion. 1. Big Sandy TH to East Fork Valley. Big Sandy is on the west side of the range south of Pinedale, WY. Its one of the busiest trailheads as it accesses the Cirque of the Towers as well as a number of fine long-distance loops. Avoid the crowds and go North along the Fremont Trail and camp at Dad's Lake (6 miles) on night one or even further at Skull Lake - stunning camping at Skull Lake - small brookies in 2002. Head west, cross-country via a very manageable route down to the East Fork Valley and you'll find a valley that will have you thinking you are in Patagonia. From Mt. Geike to Mt. Bonneville there is a sheer 1,000 - 1,300 wall of grantite that shelters the East Fork river and several lakes along the way. May still be goldens in the upper lakes; I've been through the East Fork but did not fish; goldens may persist in the upper lakes - definitely fish all over though. This valley may be the most beautiful place I've ever seen - that, plus ample fishing opps. makes it special. Not crowded either. Very doable in a 5 night trip without having to do a death march. Could make it easier by camping along the Fremont and doing a day trip down to the East Fork; then could also do a day trip up Washakie Creek to the Shadow Lake area - if you have a topo map, this will all make sense. 2. Fiddlers Lake TH to Silas Canyon. This is on the west side of Lander, WY. Good brookie fishing in numerous lakes in lower basin; cutthroats and some goldens in the upper lakes. TH starts in the pines and is forested for the first few miles - upper Silas Lake about 3 or 4 miles in would be a good first nights camp - nice view of the mountain portal to the upper basin where the cutts are. Spend three nights up at Thumb Lake and explore the lakes in the basin and the interconnecting streams. Very pretty timberline basin with some jagged peaks and sharp walls. Smaller basin than upper East Fork and not as insanely scenic, but pretty nonetheless and the fishing is probably better than the East Fork - the disclaimer is that I've only hiked through East Fork and did not fish. Have fished Silas and its good. Very manageable trip for 5 nights. Could even do it in 3. 3. Sweetwater Gap - Tayo Park base camp. Sweetwater Gap is the southernmost and least utilized TH in the Winds. Last two miles to TH are rough - in 2003 I drove a Subaru to the TH but it was, well "technical" as there were ruts over a foot deep. No idea what the road is like now, but I doubt its better. From TH its 6 miles to Sweetwater Gap on the Continental Divide. You follow the headwaters of the Sweetwater River - small pocket water for browns and brooks. Drop over to Tayo Park - a large and beautiful meadow with Tayo Creek and brookies. Could base there and do dayhikes up toward Poison Lake (brooks), Mountain Sheep Lake (brooks) and Coon Lake (goldens) - creek fishing too. Could also take fairly strenuous day hike to Ice Lakes and fish that basin - brooks. If in particularly good shape, could make it Ice Lakes and then explore the fantastic Deep Creek Lakes - cutts and goldens. Add two miles if you can't drive to TH. Great scenery, feels really remote and good fishing. About 10 - 11 miles from Sweetwater TH to Tayo Park. There are so many others, but these would be good. Could also look at the Deep Creek Lake basin out of Big Sandy TH - popular rock climbing area so would see some people. Fantastic scenery - fishing OK from smallish brookies and some cutts - camping at Rapid Lake provides some solitude and access to the Temple Lakes. This will be my next trip hopefully next year as my two sons will both be old enought to make the trek. Again, check out your maps and it'll all make sense. Happy Trails! As folks younger than say or used to say, its gonna epic!

I'm curious about wild trout reproduction in our small creeks because, well, I like to catch them and its interesting how those critters get by. My understanding from observation and reading here and there is that they spawn in Mo. from late Dec. through February in areas with clean, decently stable gravel and some steady flow. I assume that the late Dec. high water destroyed some early redds, but am wondering if the floods and current cold snap could be the recipe for a really good year class of wild 'bows. Makes sense to me, but its just conjecture and it might be wishful thinking. Anyone have any info/insight or sources they are aware of for more info on the topic?

These guys are "rugged individualists" in their own mind; considerably less so than else here on this board who isn't on food stamps. The Hammonds - the arsonists who set the fire - have, like many "ranchers" out West, received nearly $300,000 in cold hard federal cash subsidies between '95 and 2012; aka public lands rancher welfare. And, as someone noted above, they get to graze BLM lands for pennies on the dollar compared to private grazing. Of course, BLM lands are often not prime grazing lands and probably shouldn't be so used, but that's another story. Maybe the subsidies are defensible, I don't know, but these guys are not uniquely self-reliant and productive folks. Hard-working, you bet, but very reliant on largesse from the same govt. that supposedly tramples over them. As for Bundy, he didn't pay grazing fees for like two decades and overstocked his grazing allotment for most of that time. These guys are not heroes, they are not "rugged individualists," they are oppotunistic criminals. Source is here (if I linked it right): http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2015/IM_2015-056.print.htm

Fishinwrench is right on. In 25 years and hundreds of days on public waters (holy crap, how did that happen) of needing a license to fish in Mo. I have been checked exactly zero times. Zero. Oddly, the only time I've encountered state game and fish personnel who asked about a license was last month on a backpacking trip in Wyoming. These guys walked in a few miles into the backcountry to check around while here in Mo. with WAY more fishing pressure on WAY more accessible streams its nada, zilch, zero. If, for instance, MDC really wanted to make sure that folks weren't violating the regs. on the upper Jacks or fishing with trout worms below Baptist like the guy I saw several times last weekend (who also chucked his mangled plastic baits into the river when he asked if I was catchin' anything), then you'd think that over the course of 150 or so days on those rivers over the course of 25 years someone would have at least checked my license or something. I really do not think that it is a manpower issue, its a want to issue. And joeD, I think MDC should pay you for drafting that letter b/c it is perfect bureaucrat-speak: lots of words but no content.

I agree with the suggestions already given. I'd just add that if the water is not high, its worth it to throw few #14-#16 generic dries like an Elk Hair caddis, little terrestrials, etc. up at the head of pools where a riffle comes in. I've had nice days fishing dries on BSP and the other wild trout creeks. Enjoy.

I grew up hunting. The best Christmas was when the long box was under the tree - a single shot .22 one year and a 20 gauge another. I have no problem with guns. I just don't understand open carry at all, not in the least. I just don't trust random strangers with guns. If you can't go to, for instance, to the St. Louis Zoo without packing a gun on your waist, it seems that you the exact kind of paranoid wuss that should not be carrying a gun. The idea that more guns equals more safety is just goofy. It makes some sense - maybe - in a few particularly rough areas, but the better best is just to stay out of those areas. The idea of bunch of gun enthusiasts open carrying around Webster Groves or Hawn or Bennett Springs is ridiculous.

I'll just say it...I hate jetboats on anything but the largest Ozark streams - and even then - good grief people, paddle or float or just forefeit the so-called need of flying up and down the river - the ONLY reasons are pure personal convenience and to use the river like an amusement park an its and other people's expense. If you can't slow down when passing other river users - that is you just "have" to stay on plane - then you shouldn't be there, period. There is a manners issue, but also just an incompatible use issue. Incompatible with intact riverbanks, any semblance of peace and quiet and - flame away folks - a large part of the sense of quiet contemplation and immersion in the experience by the boater. The river is in large part - for the vast majority of jet-boaters I see - a navigational joyride. Really not that much different than allowing ATVs on a trail at Hawn, Bell Mtn., or in the Tetons.

To sum it up, if this passes (unlikely, but whoever votes for it should be voted out) then adjacent landowners hold legal title to all gravel bars on most of the lower North Fork, the Meramec, the Big, the Elk the "Gap" on the Jacks Fork and the first few miles below the Prongs, the Niangua, a good part of the Gasconade, Huzzah, Courtois, Bryant, and Black, and a few spots on the Current - technically, I suppose one would be trespassing on the Pioneer Forest around between Akers and Pulltite by pulling off at a gravel bar. As far as the Mo. Sup. Ct. Delcour case that established a public right to utilize navigable waterways, it would seem that case would have no bearing on this proposed statute b/c Delcour was not based on any public constitutional right to access or constitutional limitation on private property rights of adjacent landowners. Thus, this new statute would effectively re-define private property rights as the legislature is free to do, subject to constitutional limitations - in the absence of a constitutional limitation on this proposed bill, its all fair game for the legislature. All the more reason to get involved and stay that way. This is the same sort of narrow, anti-public interest legislation that is constantly in play out West - seems its made its way East to our detriment. If not convinced, try floating in Wyoming sometime; there are almost militant landowners on the upper Green near Pinedale who will get downright physically threatening if, while floating through on a 60 yd. wide stretch running at 1500cfs, you dare anchor temporarily in the middle of the river (out of sight from and over a mile away from from their house) to untangle a line. Would suck big time for the canoe industry and fishermen if that kind of situation came to Missouri. The proposed Mo. statute doesn't go that far, but try telling that to some irritated landowner as you wade fish - would be a lot of emboldened crumudgeons.