Middle meramec report

[fishinwrench]

3 minutes ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

Wrench, you are correct.

 

There!   Since you refuse to say it I will just say it for you.      

[Chief Grey Bear]

55 minutes ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

 

There is no other way to interpret it.

I answered it right here.

[MOPanfisher]

There are certain truths at play here.  No matter what the rules are, or how liberal the spotted bass is in the rivers to stay, right wrong or indifferent.  They appear to be extremely well adapted to that environment.  It is unlikely that their populations will rise to the super destructive level of say asian carp though.  Nothing any of us say is likely to change anyone mind, and each of us has their personal favorites we are champions for, personally I truly love smallies and gogglers in the rivers.  Keep the liberal limits on keeping spots and know that there is going to be some abuse.  There is no question that simply tossing any fish up onto the bank is illegal, would an agent write a ticket for it, probably.  Could I personally do it, no I don't think I could, but that's me. Could I fish with someone who did, honestly that hinge on more than just tossing fish on the bank, but I wouldn't like it. Ah hell I went to stir the spaghetti sauce and don't remember where I was going.  Just ban catching them, let the state trap them, that's the plan for feral hogs maybe it will work for the spotted bass.

[Jerry Rapp]

15 minutes ago, MOPanfisher said:

  Just ban catching them, let the state trap them, that's the plan for feral hogs maybe it will work for the spotted bass.

LOL!  I see what you did. 

[Al Agnew]

Another spotted bass argument...doubt if I have the energy for it.  But if anybody hasn't read Chief and me arguing about it before, here's my take...

They are NOT native to the streams flowing north off the Ozark dome.  That includes the Osage, Gasconade, and Meramec river systems.  Those streams have native smallmouth, well-adapted to the conditions found on them IN THE ABSENCE OF COMPETITORS.  The spots simply outcompete, and outbreed them in these streams, unless the habitat doesn't favor spots.  You have to get into the clearest, coolest parts of these river systems to find waters where the smallmouth can remain the dominant species.  Because spots are competitors on these streams, for every pound of spotted bass biomass, there seems to be one less pound of smallmouth biomass.  Finite amount of food and habitat, so finite amount of biomass.  And the fewer smallmouth there are, the fewer big ones.  On the other hand, spotted bass simply don't grow as big as smallmouths can on these streams.  I've never caught one out of the Meramec river system over about 17 inches.   So, as the spots moved in, the fishery changed from one dominated by smallmouth, including a decent number of big smallmouth, to one dominated by small, slow-growing spotted bass.  Heck, nowadays most anglers don't even realize that the lower Meramec in St. Louis County, as well as lower Big River and lower Bourbeuse, once produced a lot of big smallmouth.  Ditto with the lower Gasconade.  Now you can find a few big ones when they are concentrated in the winter in a few specific spots, but otherwise, any smallmouth catch in the Meramec below the mouth of the Bourbeuse is pretty much an accident.

So, given the rule of thumb that says for every pound of spotted bass biomass there is one less pound of smallmouth biomass, if you remove as many spots as possible, you free up forage and habitat for smallmouth.  No, there is no way to get rid of the spots, but you can theoretically keep them suppressed.

Spots did NOT get into these rivers naturally, but by human intervention.  Either by spreading from intentional stocking, or because dams on the upper Missouri River, the construction of the Diversion Channel in southeast MO, and clean water laws combined to give them a pathway to these streams that they never had before.  Just because they were never stocked in these specific streams, doesn't mean they could have gotten to them without that human intervention.

And finally...spotted bass ARE native to the south-flowing streams.  There, the smallmouth and spots have co-existed at least since the last ice age, and have worked out their own niches in the habitat.  With exceptions from human intervention--dams have allowed spotted bass to spread and grow their populations at the expense of smallmouth in some streams.  It's doubtful that spotted bass were anything but very rare in the James River before Table Rock, and smallmouth were the dominant species in lower Black River until you got close to Poplar Bluff, where now spots are by far the dominant species everywhere below Clearwater Dam.  In streams such as Chief's southwestern ones, and the St. Francis in southeast MO, spots and smallmouth share much the same habitat, but in most of the southern Ozark streams, the smallmouth dominate almost to the exclusion of spotted bass in the clearer, cooler sections, and only in the slower, warmer lower ends of many of these streams do spotted bass dominate.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM with spotted bass in the streams where they are native.  They are a great game fish in those streams deserving of protection.  I only have a problem with them in the streams where they are not native and have damaged smallmouth populations.

[Chief Grey Bear]

22 minutes ago, Al Agnew said:

The spots simply outcompete, and outbreed them in these streams, unless the habitat doesn't favor spots. 

How did you determine this? I would like to read  the data on this.

22 minutes ago, Al Agnew said:

Spots did NOT get into these rivers naturally, but by human intervention.  Either by spreading from intentional stocking, or because dams on the upper Missouri River, the construction of the Diversion Channel in southeast MO, and clean water laws combined to give them a pathway to these streams that they never had before.  Just because they were never stocked in these specific streams, doesn't mean they could have gotten to them without that human intervention.

 

This is a speculation theory. It can't be  corroborated. But we do know that climate change has expanded the original territory of many birds, plants, fish, animals. But it can't be totally dismissed either. 

22 minutes ago, Al Agnew said:

 Because spots are competitors on these streams, for every pound of spotted bass biomass, there seems to be one less pound of smallmouth biomass.  Finite amount of food and habitat, so finite amount of biomass.  

What about the Walleye? Largemouth bass? Goggle eye? Catfish? They are all competitors. There is more than enough forage for all to enjoy.  

[shrapnel]

I disagree.

[joeD]

Obviously, stream spotted bass are a desirable sport fish to pursue in our Ozark waters.  Pictures of lunker spots prove that.  The fact that there isn't a separate sub forum for this beloved fish baffles me.

I'm sure some of you would gladly champion the desirability in pursuing this scrappy stream member.

 

[moguy1973]

6 hours ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

It's non-native so there are no regs for them. You can do what you want the Wonton rule does not apply.

The beloved trout are non-native to Missouri. But there are regs for them. 

I think you meant they are non native and envasive. 

[Chief Grey Bear]

7 hours ago, moguy1973 said:

The beloved trout are non-native to Missouri. But there are regs for them. 

I think you meant they are non native and envasive. 

Very true and a valid point. 

But Missouri doesn't have carp parks or stock them in streams either. 

Trout, though non-native to Missouri, are native to the United States, and are classified as a Game Fish with seasons and limits.