What Factors influence the Smallmouth population

[tjm]

I've known a lot of people  that wouldn't eat any black bass (they were talking LM & SM) caught in the warm months because of the worms. I don't know if summer has anything to do with the worms or not, but that is what the old folks used to say. On the other hand I have read that cooking turns them things into food. (both the bass and it's worms)

Think if you git rid of the fish eating birds you will git rid of the worms though.

[MOPanfisher]

Thats like saying don't put criminals n jail because they will just keep doing it...its like weeds in the garden...with effort they can be controlled.

 

  It would be more like removing say 25% (and that is generous) of the weeds from your garden, you are not controlling anything, the reproductive capability more than makes up for loss.

[fishinwrench]

1 hour ago, MoCarp said:

with skill they can be removed

I thought "with skill" that you could be removed too.  Didn't work.    I'll leave all the grub infested meat picking to you.

You're welcome

[Al Agnew]

Plenty of worms in them in the winter, too.  They are easy to see and pick out, but when there are so many that each bite would have a half dozen, it hardly seems worth the effort to pick them all out.  They are harmless to humans, so eating them is okay, but just not very appetizing.  Their life cycle goes through great blue herons and snails as well as the fish.  And yes, spotted bass have considerably more of them than smallmouth, and largemouth have the least number of them, for whatever reason.

[Hog Wally]

If we killed every single passenger pigeon in the world, surely we can make a mess out of these spots ? I personally, along with some locals, are murdering em.  The larvae thing is non issue for us.  I've eaten a lot worse   I'm not a fan of wasting but if spots could be compared with any nuisance animal that is on the list of kill on site, leave em lay, then so be it. I personally will eat em and smile    

[MOPanfisher]

Again not quite the same population dynamics, unless you are able to literally kill them out of trees at night with a long stick, but certainly keeping as many as possible isn't going to be bad.  

[Jim Spriggs]

With respect to the disagreement about whether removing the spotted bass will have an effect, that’s an empirical question and either: (1) biologists already have a good model of the spotted bass population dynamics, and one of them could forecast what effect a change in one factor, harvest rate, would have on the overall population; or (2) we need a study.  In the meantime, it can’t hurt to keep the spots.  

Anyone know a fisheries biologist  you can pose this question to?

[Jim Spriggs]

As I suggested above, we need a biologist to do a simulation of the influence of aggressive harvest.  But, to make a difference it seems only two things need to be true: 1) anglers harvest spotted bass at a faster rate than the fish can reproduce; (2) Smallmouth respond to the relative absence of spotted bass, increasing the number of eggs that mature to fish and increasing the size of fish.  

#1 seems doable, and #2 doesn’t seem out of the question; but I don’t know the science on #2, which needs to tell us the following: for every X number of Spotted bass, how many fewer Smallmouth are there?  

[tjm]

But the water will still be warm? And the water will still be stained? Will removal of spotted bass make the stream less fertile?

Is there another place where the spotted bass has colonized to the detriment of other black bass, or is this watershed unique in that respect?

3 hours ago, Jim Spriggs said:

Anyone know a fisheries biologist  you can pose this question to?

It was established on page 4 or 5 that no one wants to believe a Fisheries Biologist. (Stupid college grads know nothing and will not say what I want to hear?)  Some one on this forum did say that he has studied to be a fish biologist, was it Mocarp?

[MoCarp]

On 12/14/2017 at 9:46 AM, Bushbeater said:

 Consider the stream bank differences caused by the bridge replacements at Onondaga and Cambell as well as Hwy K. What used to be tight tree lined channel is now beat down gravel flats.

interesting observation, what do you think causes that? jet boat wakes? moving trees right up to the waters edge?..

there is a spot below grand falls near an old quarry on shoal creek that had its trees removed right up to the waters edge about 17 years ago..the last huge flood we had ripped that side of the river down and widened it by 40 yards!....created a huge gravel bar in the middle of the river....that bank it been stable for years even without the trees but once the old quarry bridge was removed the erosion happened.....

18 hours ago, tjm said:

Think if you git rid of the fish eating birds you will git rid of the worms though.

or the snails that also host

17 hours ago, fishinwrench said:

I thought "with skill" that you could be removed too.  Didn't work.    I'll leave all the grub infested meat picking to you.

You're welcome

<--still changing hearts and minds one post at a time

16 hours ago, Al Agnew said:

Plenty of worms in them in the winter, too.  They are easy to see and pick out, but when there are so many that each bite would have a half dozen, it hardly seems worth the effort to pick them all out.  They are harmless to humans, so eating them is okay, but just not very appetizing.  Their life cycle goes through great blue herons and snails as well as the fish.  And yes, spotted bass have considerably more of them than smallmouth, and largemouth have the least number of them, for whatever reason.

agreed

16 hours ago, Hog Wally said:

If we killed every single passenger pigeon in the world, surely we can make a mess out of these spots ? I personally, along with some locals, are murdering em.  The larvae thing is non issue for us.  I've eaten a lot worse   I'm not a fan of wasting but if spots could be compared with any nuisance animal that is on the list of kill on site, leave em lay, then so be it. I personally will eat em and smile    

man can obliterate spotted bass if efforts are truly made.....Passenger Pigeons, American Bison, the collapse of the Newfoundland Grand Banks cod fishery...we all remember cod fish sticks were cheap and plentiful..yet whole thing went belly up in the early 90's.....yes man can impact 

6 hours ago, Jim Spriggs said:

With respect to the disagreement about whether removing the spotted bass will have an effect, that’s an empirical question and either: (1) biologists already have a good model of the spotted bass population dynamics, and one of them could forecast what effect a change in one factor, harvest rate, would have on the overall population; or (2) we need a study.  In the meantime, it can’t hurt to keep the spots.  

Anyone know a fisheries biologist  you can pose this question to?

I asked a couple guys I know about that...if the only thing they had to do was concentrate on the spotted bass issue...its a work load thing we would need 4x the biologists just to keep pace to the normal things..like shock surveys waters are now only every 3 years...and many waters no longer get sampled..the asian carp issues, zebra mussels and invasive aquatic weeds tend to take priorities and pull our biologists away from the "fun stuff"....The makers of policy only direct actions to the most immediate needs...SMB genetics....and hellbender studies...are examples..just need more biologists to get more done

4 hours ago, Jim Spriggs said:

As I suggested above, we need a biologist to do a simulation of the influence of aggressive harvest.  But, to make a difference it seems only two things need to be true: 1) anglers harvest spotted bass at a faster rate than the fish can reproduce; (2) Smallmouth respond to the relative absence of spotted bass, increasing the number of eggs that mature to fish and increasing the size of fish.  

#1 seems doable, and #2 doesn’t seem out of the question; but I don’t know the science on #2, which needs to tell us the following: for every X number of Spotted bass, how many fewer Smallmouth are there?  

these are areas that SMB alliance could fund studies with grand money to universities..for specific studies..also orgs like Muskies inc even pays for more aggressive stocking......I am sure working with the proper state agencies and groups would do amazing things 

2 hours ago, tjm said:

But the water will still be warm? And the water will still be stained? Will removal of spotted bass make the stream less fertile?

Is there another place where the spotted bass has colonized to the detriment of other black bass, or is this watershed unique in that respect?

It was established on page 4 or 5 that no one wants to believe a Fisheries Biologist. (Stupid college grads know nothing and will not say what I want to hear?)  Some one on this forum did say that he has studied to be a fish biologist, was it Mocarp?

yes that was me.......many times its hard for some to believe the hard numbers...as an example the shut down of the snapper fisheries in the gulf...fisherman catch the wiz out of red snappers right now..just can't keep them..numbers are growing as are the sizes..yet peoples livings were crushed with the bans on harvest...makes people salty....like anything..if someone have an ax to grind, they almost always have an interest.....in the end numbers don't lie....the truth to the matter is we don't have all the answers...almost all problems I have seen in any fisheries issue is 2 fold ...habitat...and over harvest......I was asked by a biologist on benthic mapping of streams.....MDC has no ability to do that..yet in Kansas  they can map most any small lake with software available for off the shelf sonar.....not as applicable..so we have a cool carp angling bit of kit called the deeper.....with a boat are attached to a yak..you can get detailed benthic maps in a stream......would be useful to chart how gravel movement...bank eroding..pool depth etc..I will expect an every 3 year survey on some streams start and for the 1st time give hard numbers on streams...you heard it here first!

SMB alliance could buy one and yak up some nice maps for your local MDC biologist..bet he'd love you for it

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOhW3iyVBRI