Long line fly rod Euro Nymphing - ticking bottom every second

[Ryan Miloshewski]

Let's be clear here..euronymphing is not fly fishing. It is jigging for trout on a long rod. 

[tjm]

In Mo. casting a Rooster Tail with a Snoopy rod is fly fishing. Many jigs are flies, bead-head and dumbbell  "flies" are Jigs.

But nymph fishing? A hundred years ago GEM Skues and Frank Sawyer. both European British, wrote extensively on fly fishing with a nymph. Again almost a hundred years ago in  this country Ted Fay and Ted Towendolly among others made fly fishing with a nymph the main attraction on the Sacramento River, some/most of Jim Leisenring's flies and methods were fly fishing with a nymph. More recently   Joe Humphreys ~1980 wrote a bunch about fly fishing with nymphs. And all favored longer rods than a six or seven foot dry fly rod. The only objectionable thing I find with "Euro-nymphing" is the "Euro"  and idea that it is something new,  most of the the techniques  have been around a long while and some were borrowed from the Wintu Indians.

Sure we have longer lighter rods that allow us to stand farther away from the fish, but that is due Graphite which didn't grow in Europe but was hatched by Shakespeare and Fenwick, former American companies. The Vlad that started the modern nymphing craze showed up at the fishing contest with only knee boots so he had to use a longer rod, but his fathers style of fishing is something that I learned from Sawyer's book. This is actually called "Contact Nymphing" now I believe. Maybe to take away Euro/new world order connotation.

What is not fly fishing is dragging a fly or nymph along under a bobber, but that's become acceptable.

[Ryan Miloshewski]

47 minutes ago, tjm said:

In Mo. casting a Rooster Tail with a Snoopy rod is fly fishing. Many jigs are flies, bead-head and dumbbell  "flies" are Jigs.

But nymph fishing? A hundred years ago GEM Skues and Frank Sawyer. both European British, wrote extensively on fly fishing with a nymph. Again almost a hundred years ago in  this country Ted Fay and Ted Towendolly among others made fly fishing with a nymph the main attraction on the Sacramento River, some/most of Jim Leisenring's flies and methods were fly fishing with a nymph. More recently   Joe Humphreys ~1980 wrote a bunch about fly fishing with nymphs. And all favored longer rods than a six or seven foot dry fly rod. The only objectionable thing I find with "Euro-nymphing" is the "Euro"  and idea that it is something new,  most of the the techniques  have been around a long while and some were borrowed from the Wintu Indians.

Sure we have longer lighter rods that allow us to stand farther away from the fish, but that is due Graphite which didn't grow in Europe but was hatched by Shakespeare and Fenwick, former American companies. The Vlad that started the modern nymphing craze showed up at the fishing contest with only knee boots so he had to use a longer rod, but his fathers style of fishing is something that I learned from Sawyer's book. This is actually called "Contact Nymphing" now I believe. Maybe to take away Euro/new world order connotation.

What is not fly fishing is dragging a fly or nymph along under a bobber, but that's become acceptable.

What makes fly fishing, fly fishing, is the weight of the line casting the bait. Not a reel, weight of the lure, etc. So casting a rooster tail is 100% not fly fishing. Neither is putting on a perdigon (jig) and letting it bounce along the bottom in riffles. 

[tjm]

What defines fly fishing as "fly fishing" is the state law.  It varies with location. Where I started fly rod fishing, "fly fishing" was indeed defined by the reel, on "fly fishing only" waters you had to use a "single action fly reel" and a "fly rod", I once asked a 'warden' if use of worms with a fly rod and reel would be legal and the reply was that the requirement only pertained to rod and reel. If you fish in "fly fishing only" water in Mo. you can use any method as long as the lure has "any other material"  permanently attached to the hook.

[Johnsfolly]

2 hours ago, Ryan Miloshewski said:

Let's be clear here..euronymphing is not fly fishing. It is jigging for trout on a long rod. 

Purist 🤣🤔

[Ryan Miloshewski]

11 minutes ago, Johnsfolly said:

Purist 🤣🤔

It is a hill I will die on!

Lol I honestly don't care, I just don't think it fits the true fly fishing bill

[tjm]

So, lets think about this, consider a bead head zebra midge, it is a jig by virtue of the heavy bead, it looks essentially like a perdigon (except the perdigon has the tail consistent with mayflies)   and either can be cast with a floating line or with a bobber or with a mono rig (something that Humphreys advocated for nymph fishing @1980), so if one is a "fly" the other must be too?

If  both are flies the using either must be "fly fishing"?

So the objection to " letting it bounce along the bottom in riffles" is that the fly is "dead drifting" (letting it bounce along) or that it is on the bottom or that it is in the riffles? Dead drift is accepted dry fly strategy so that can't be a problem, fishing in  riffles must surely be acceptable? That only leaves the fact that the fly is near the bottom? So is any use of a submerged fly not "fly fishing"? or is there a precise distance above the bottom that makes it acceptable?

I have never seen a universally accepted definition of fly fishing because it is continuously changing, the system is fluid and elastic, we can cast up stream or across, use floating line or sinking line invent new patterns at will, cast overhead or underhand, or roll cast, even use a dry fly as a suspension device so that others don't notice we are bobber fishing. Use a single  fly or a team of flies. We can't even define what constitutes a "fly"- MDC tried to for decades and most recently said "or any other material" attached to a single point hook. In some jurisdictions double hooks are acceptable.

I say "fly rod fishing" for my own way of doing it and use jigs, flies, spoons, or live bait as my mood strikes all with a single action reel and "fly rod". For your personal definition you are welcome to add any personal restrictions that please you, but no beads, no bead chain, no cones, no dumbbells, no submersion, sorta limits you to pure dry fly presentation and at that point you  should also cast only to rising fish and only upstream, in the true Euro tradition. 

[Gavin]

You never know if your really "catching" or if your just flossing/snagging fish in the mouth with methods like that.

[BilletHead]

9 minutes ago, Ryan Miloshewski said:

It is a hill I will die on!

Lol I honestly don't care, I just don't think it fits the true fly fishing bill

                  So, Ryan you never swing a wooly Bugger?   No lead added for weight on any bugger or nymph? I throw some pretty big stuff for big fish and my "flys" are heavy. My line does the throwing for those too. So, am I a fly fisherman or not? 

   So back to trout fly fishing. Can the lead, copper, brass or tungsten bead take the place of lead on nymphs?  Is this acceptable Judge and jury?  Ok trout feed deep the majority of their lives on nymphs, correct?  Lose all your weight on your nymphs and throw dries and we will see how that works out for you.

[tjm]

The whole "line must pull/carry/cast the  fly/lure/bait" thing is all  about mass and line speed, mass moves mass and rod length adds speed; with a #12 line and a 14' rod a person has enough of each to cast a hammer, so if we use that as the definition must we set a limit on line mass per foot and on maximum rod length for it be fly fishing?