Strains of Smallmouth bass

[Al Agnew]

Yep, I always called green sunfish black perch. My brother in law calls them pond perch.

Like I said, though, there really is a considerable difference in appearance with the three rock bass species. When you catch one, you just think "goggle-eye", but if you held the three species up next to each other, or you see good photos of them together, the differences are pretty obvious. I did a goggle-eye painting once, long before I knew there were different species. Looking back at that painting, it was obviously of a shadow bass. The photos I used for reference on it was of a goggle-eye caught from the St. Francis. I caught some goggle-eye the other day on jerkbaits while fishing for smallmouths in a small creek that is a direct tributary to the Mississippi, and they were definitely northern rock bass. I wasn't sure which species they would be in that creek until I caught one.

[Wayne SW/MO]

Yes I probably jumped too quick, but I suppose being exposed to the different species it was natural for me to think Rock Bass, when Goggle Eye are mentioned. In this area Ozark and Rocks are very close, so one catches both if you fish in different flows. I haven't personally caught anything but Rock Bass in TR, and I don't know that I've ever seen a Warmouth in the western part of the state.

[MoCarp]

Old string.... but warmouth are common in the spring river and blackberry creek

They are looking to stock Grand Lake with them..FWS looks like they are getting the brood stock selected...Last time I looked World record Neosho was just a under 3 lbs...unsure what it is or if the MDC even has a submission 

"Peoria Indian tribe hopes to stock Grand Lake with native smallmouth bass"

http://www.joplinglobe.com/news/local_news/peoria-indian-tribe-hopes-to-stock-grand-lake-with-native/article_0c06346e-fc7c-538e-93df-3d39b5f9b6c3.html

http://digitalmedia.fws.gov/cdm/ref/collection/document/id/2138

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/outdoors/vinita-man-catches-surprise-record-smallmouth-bass-at-grand-lake/article_5a127d74-d598-5141-bcb2-b0993a0f54f6.html

[Mitch f]

On 3/3/2006 at 8:06 PM, Al Agnew said:

From what I've been able to gather, the genetics of Ozark smallmouths are pretty confused. There was so much milk can stocking in the early 1900s that there are probably no pure strains of Neoshos left. The various river systems may have all had slightly different strains originally. If you look at the connections between river systems, you can see why this might be so. The Neoshos were native to rivers flowing into the Arkansas River, and rivers like the Mulberry and Big Piney in Arkansas may have had Neosho strain fish originally. And since the White River flows into the Arkansas or thereabouts where both come into the Mississippi, chances are the White River fish (including Current, Black, and Eleven Point) may have had fish similar to the Neoshos originally. I remember reading a genetic study somewhere that said that the fish in the streams flowing directly into the Mississippi in MO (the Meramec river system and smaller streams like Saline Creek) were a little different genetically from the fish in the rest of the Ozarks. And it's just possible that smallies were not even native to the rivers in MO that flow into the Missouri River, like the Gasconade and Osage river systems (including the Niangua and Pomme De Terre). It's been pretty well known that rock bass were not native to these streams.

 

As an artist, I've noticed that smallmouths on the Buffalo in AR look a little different than the Meramec River system smallies I'm used to catching. Maybe slightly different genetics?

 

The original native range of smallies was the Ohio and Tennessee river systems, the upper Mississippi river system, and the rivers flowing into the Great Lakes. The Ozarks was somewhat separate from all these areas. And there are differences between Great Lakes type fish and Tennessee/Ohio river system fish in general body shape. The Great Lakes type fish and the upper Mississippi fish are blockier and deeper through the body than Tennessee/Ohio fish, which tend to be pretty slender if they are river fish, and football shaped if they are reservoir fish. The Ozark fish in general look like Tennessee river fish rather than upper Mississippi fish, but they are a different strain with less potential to get really large. That's the reason why the top size of Ozark reservoir smallmouths seems to be about 7 pounds while fish in some of the Tennessee and Kentucky reservoirs, in the same latitude and with a similar growing season, have produced lots of fish bigger than that, including the world record. Since Neosho strain fish don't get very big, could it be that smallies all over the Ozarks are "contaminated" with Neosho genes?

I can fairly often tell the difference between a Big River smallmouth versus a Meramec Smallmouth versus a Gasconade smallmouth. Can you tell me which one is which, Al?

[basska]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:46 PM, Mitch f said:

I can fairly often tell the difference between a Big River smallmouth versus a Meramec Smallmouth versus a Gasconade smallmouth. Can you tell me which one is which, Al?

Can I take a guess?? I have never fished any of these rivers, but based on what I see Ozark Smallmouth FB Group, I'd go:

1. Gasconade

2. Meramec

3. Big

In all seriousness, this spring/summer I have decided I'll spend a weekend exploring and wading creeks in SW MO. Hopefully the Sugar, Shoal and Indian Creeks. All of these are in the alleged peak range of the Neosho strain, and I'll make sure to take note of the appearance of any fish I catch. 

[tjm]

Times have changed in the last 19 years (thread start date) and Neosho bass (Micropterus  velox) are no longer considered to be Smallmouth bass  (Micropterus dolomieu) by the scientists even if MDC is still calling them that  and many  web resources haven't been updated. Two or three years ago genetics showed that they are a separate species with a common ancestor. 

All the streams I normally fish lie in the range of Micropterus  velox, in past years I never distinguished them from other black bass, so I'm unsure if all the "small mouth bass" that  I've ever caught were Neosho bass  or if the OP is correct in that the population is mixed.  I'm certain that I've caught some over three pounds. I'm also sure that the stream inventories aren't 100% accurate and that in addition to  confusion  of these species, I believe there are other examples of  fish and crayfish  in the Elk drainage that are not supposed to be here.

I guess the prominent under-bite/long lower lip might be the easiest way to distinguish these  fish, although there are differences in dentition and in number of dorsal fin rays.  They come very light colored with elaborate markings to almost black with vague markings and I think may change colors during the course of a day, but that's just my speculation.

 

[Al Agnew]

5 hours ago, tjm said:

Times have changed in the last 19 years (thread start date) and Neosho bass (Micropterus  velox) are no longer considered to be Smallmouth bass  (Micropterus dolomieu) by the scientists even if MDC is still calling them that  and many  web resources haven't been updated. Two or three years ago genetics showed that they are a separate species with a common ancestor. 

All the streams I normally fish lie in the range of Micropterus  velox, in past years I never distinguished them from other black bass, so I'm unsure if all the "small mouth bass" that  I've ever caught were Neosho bass  or if the OP is correct in that the population is mixed.  I'm certain that I've caught some over three pounds. I'm also sure that the stream inventories aren't 100% accurate and that in addition to  confusion  of these species, I believe there are other examples of  fish and crayfish  in the Elk drainage that are not supposed to be here.

I guess the prominent under-bite/long lower lip might be the easiest way to distinguish these  fish, although there are differences in dentition and in number of dorsal fin rays.  They come very light colored with elaborate markings to almost black with vague markings and I think may change colors during the course of a day, but that's just my speculation.

 

They not only change colors during the course of a day, they change "colors" in minutes.  The reason I put it in quotation marks is because you have to differentiate between pattern or lack of it, shade--dark to light, and overall color cast.  Smallmouth and Neoshos do all three.  The pattern of dark vertical bars and splotches is actually a sign of stress or excitement; smallies just hanging out in the river are usually almost unmarked.  But when you hook one, by the time you get it in those dark bars are beginning to show.  Put it on a stringer and they become VERY prominent.  (Note that "excitement" includes sexual excitement--spawning fish are usually very heavily marked.)

Smallmouth and Neoshos can also change their overall shade from very light to almost totally very dark.  This is sometimes a response to light levels in their surroundings, or the darkness or lightness of the bottom.  Smallmouth caught in the summer over a bottom covered in dark algae are usually fairly dark overall, while smallmouth caught over a clean gravel bottom (like you see in the winter when the algae dies off) in bright sunlight will usually be very light brassy in shade and color to blend in with the clean, well lit gravel bottom.

And finally, they can change color cast overall from very brownish and coppery brass to more olive.  They can even fade out these colors and turn almost olive gray.  This is always in response to the predominant color of the bottom, and usually takes a little longer to make the change.

I've got more than a thousand photos of smallmouth I've caught in various places, which I use in my paintings.  The variety of patterns, colors, and shades is amazing.

[tjm]

yeah, I've seen a lot of shades and patterns on these fish  Prettiest ones were over clean light colored gravel on brighter days, . I've just never been sure how long it took them to to make the change.

[snagged in outlet 3]

10 hours ago, Al Agnew said:

he darkness or lightness of the bottom.  Smallmouth caught in the summer over a bottom covered in dark algae are usually fairly dark overall, while

I caught several like this in tablerock this past summer.  
 

[Flysmallie]

This is a huge work in progress but it's the beginning of what I expect to be a great adventure. 

 

There is more info at our website www.neoshobass.com.

I have been given permission to add a 5 part series on the Neosho Bass that was done by The Ozark Podcast. I would recommend that everyone listen to at least the first two episodes. Lots of good information in that. I should have it all added to our website by the end of the weekend.

We begin filming at the end of March on what we consider a premier Neosho stream, and have many other trips planned for the remainder of the year.