nutritional forage for Bass (and other minnow eating fish)

[fishinwrench]

I can certainly vouch for the fact that 2 years of bowfishing has taken the buffalo population from one extreme to the other here on the upper Gravois.

They were everywhere, and now they are nowhere.   

Gar are still thick as hell.   I've noticed that bowfishers don't get as excited about gar as they do buffalo and carp.  I'm curious why that is.

They also don't seem to care about shooting the Asian carp below the dam and in the Osage.   Seems like if they could wipe out the buffalo up here (which were thick as all hell 3-4 years ago) that they could put a serious dent in the Asian carp population......but they don't seem to want to pursue them.   Why not?

[snagged in outlet 3]

I was out on the Missouri River last weekend and if you want to shoot some Asian carp you can certainly do it there.  Literally hundreds in the eddies.  I'm with you Wrench.  If you are just shooting them for sport why not shoot gar or go where the Asian carp population is thick.

[Chief Grey Bear]

46 minutes ago, fishinwrench said:

I can certainly vouch for the fact that 2 years of bowfishing has taken the buffalo population from one extreme to the other here on the upper Gravois.

They were everywhere, and now they are nowhere.   

Gar are still thick as hell.   I've noticed that bowfishers don't get as excited about gar as they do buffalo and carp.  I'm curious why that is.

They also don't seem to care about shooting the Asian carp below the dam and in the Osage.   Seems like if they could wipe out the buffalo up here (which were thick as all hell 3-4 years ago) that they could put a serious dent in the Asian carp population......but they don't seem to want to pursue them.   Why not?

  The only reason I can figure them boys up there or not shooting gar is that they are piss poor shots.

 I have seen literally hundreds of gar along the banks and piled up on the gravel bars down this way.

 It's sickening!  Leave the natives alone!

[MoCarp]

1 hour ago, fishinwrench said:

I can certainly vouch for the fact that 2 years of bowfishing has taken the buffalo population from one extreme to the other here on the upper Gravois.

They were everywhere, and now they are nowhere.   

Gar are still thick as hell.   I've noticed that bowfishers don't get as excited about gar as they do buffalo and carp.  I'm curious why that is.

They also don't seem to care about shooting the Asian carp below the dam and in the Osage.   Seems like if they could wipe out the buffalo up here (which were thick as all hell 3-4 years ago) that they could put a serious dent in the Asian carp population......but they don't seem to want to pursue them.   Why not?

The "money fish" in a Bfing tourney are Buffs or grass carp.. where available they are heaver usually than most other "rough fish"...other areas they do shoot the asian carp...but the silvers won't win a big 4 or big 20....bigheads would but not sure how easy it is to shoot them like other asian carp

 

[fishinwrench]

In the BF tournaments are you only allowed to weigh in a certain number of fish ?

[MoCarp]

2 hours ago, fishinwrench said:

In the BF tournaments are you only allowed to weigh in a certain number of fish ?

they have numbers shoots- big 4 fish - big 20....from my understanding its "team" totals so 4 guys can shoot 20 natives (gar-buff-suckers-bowfin) per person and weigh in JUST the best fish... be it 4 fish or 20 fish or any combo the tourney puts out..and the solo big fish pot....common carp, grass carp Asian carp, can be taken in any numbers in Missouri...the largest fish are targeted...and the amount shot can be staggering...how many are culled and not included in the boat barrel would only be known by those in the boat..many on this very forum have been behind guys Bfing and followed the floating dead fish trail...you don't have to worry about fish disposal if you dump them as you shoot them, and certainly easy to not go over your 20 fish native limit if they are not in your boat....when Buffs and commons concentrate during a spring spawning run, you can hammer the population and possibly disrupt spawning success,

many of the big tourneys target the spawn..you can imagine how for example if this was white bass, even that prolific species could get drastically reduced... if they were consistently targeted during the spawning run..you can bet fish that survived might get the hell out of dodge and avoid the spawn!....

I know its had an effect on TR/Stockton/Bull shoals as numbers are way down as well as sizes anecdotal evidence for sure... but a few years ago it was an Alabama, Biologist that noticed Alligator Gar in The Blakeley River, an eye shot from their office, were not as noticeable gulping air from the surface, easy to spot when the fish are as big as gator gar an anecdotal situation....as they investigated they found that Bfing had decimated the population, Mobile bay/delta is huge, and that revelation if it could happen there, spread like wild fire through the fisheries Community, and this is why the new regulations where enacted and alligator gar received protections and started being raised in hatcheries to re-establish in former ranges were they had been wiped out....

Granted I am into common carp/Buff fishing, but Buffalo are native, and common carp are naturalized even before the dams were built in Missouri, to think that taking literally hundreds of thousands of pounds of these fish won't have an effect on the fish they feed on their YOY is short sided at best or disingenuous at worse, should it be studied..yes...how? best you might do is require gathering data at tourney weigh-ins...but no ones going to say oh we shot 1200 fish at Stockton the other weekend, dumped them back in as we shot....ever wonder about a zillion turtles hanging out in an area???

[SpoonDog]

Lake X produces big bass and big carp, so the bass in Lake X must be eating baby carp?  Maybe, but the conclusion isn't really drawn from the observation.  Could be that the lakes are just more productive, that they have a longer growing season in CA or TX than in MO, or any other cause that isn't being considered.

Lots of diet studies have been done, I don't know of any showing bass eat lots of baby carp.  Bass spent the last however-many million years evolving independently of common carp- they'll be fine.  At the end of the day it's an argument that we should introduce or manage an invasive species- one with documented negative impacts on native fish and wildlife, one which bass may not even actually eat- for the benefit of trophy fisheries.

To me, that's bad policy.

[MoCarp]

6 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

Lake X produces big bass and big carp, so the bass in Lake X must be eating baby carp?  Maybe, but the conclusion isn't really drawn from the observation.  Could be that the lakes are just more productive, that they have a longer growing season in CA or TX than in MO, or any other cause that isn't being considered.

its to show great common carp fishing and great "game fishing" in this case Large mouth bass can and do co-exsist in many waters, and it seems removing huge numbers of common carp and Buffalo from some waters seem to be impacting LMB in some waters (big heads - skinny bodies) Kill off all the rabbits, foxes/bobcats/hawks don't eat as well, or worse eat  more quail... Lady Bird lake (formally Town Lake) in Austin, Texas. has had a one common carp 33" limit for over a decade and has had ZERO negative effect of game fishing, some of the best big bass fishing in the state is in that lake, (great panfishing as well)

6 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

Lots of diet studies have been done, I don't know of any showing bass eat lots of baby carp. 

I'd love to see a study in our area on whats eating the billions of common carp eggs, larva and YOY common carp in our Missouri Lakes.

there are some interesting studies on the impact of the true asian carp on predator species. how it hashes out good vs bad? only time will tell

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/asian_carp_being_eaten_by_native_fish_new_studies_find

https://www.bassmaster.com/conservation-news/bass-fishing-rebounding-illinois-river

http://michiganradio.org/post/bass-getting-fat-invasive-fish  <--gobies but same idea diff fish

 

6 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

Bass spent the last however-many million years evolving independently of common carp-

What about Buffalo suckers?

 

6 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

At the end of the day it's an argument that we should introduce or manage an invasive species- one with documented negative impacts on native fish and wildlife, one which bass may not even actually eat- for the benefit of trophy fisheries.

To me, that's bad policy.

In a healthy water, common carp are not harmful, and can provide sport for anglers and quality forage for bass walleyes and pike/muskies..negative impacts in some lakes (eutrophic silt laden lakes) too many commons (and buffalo) can make the water more turbid, making it difficult for some water plants to accomplish photosynthesis, in one study lake the common carp were removed to a more manageable level, and along with uncorking springs that historically fed the lake, water clarity did improve, and so did weed growth. so much so the lake became so weed choked, they have to spend hundreds of thousands of $ to mow the weeds, swimming beaches still kept being closed, so then they blamed geese, they were removed..guess what?..beaches STILL had to be closed, why? google earth lake Wingra in Madison, WI, see where the water comes from that drains into the lake.

If I look for a water that has great common carp fishing, its always has a great predator base, having both is not a either or situation!

as far as managing invasive species for the benefit of Trophy Fisheries we do it for Brown Trout in the state of Missouri, Browns are documented to negatively impact native species, and is listed as one of the worst Invasive (INCN list) offenders in the USA... blamed directly for extinctions of native species in North America, 

Ringneck pheasants (Asian) negatively impacts native species, and have displaced prairie chickens through out their former ranges. Managing "non-natives" is done in every state in the USA...Common Carp were in our white river chain of lakes before the dams went in, been here for over 140 years stocked on purpose in the 1870's by the U.S. Commission of Fish and Fisheries

I love this quote from History of Common Carp in North America by the National Park Service

A Fish once Prized, Now Despised
"By the turn of the century, the introduction of the carp was such a "success" that both public agencies and sportsmen had come to regard the fish as a nuisance. While tons of free-swimming carp were being harvested from area waters, they were comparable in taste to neither the selectively bred pool-cultivated carp of Europe nor, it was believed, to many of the native "game" species, and were thus useless as a food source. Moreover, their rapid spread appeared to threaten both water quality and native species, as commissioners nationwide noted a deterioration of formerly clear and fertile lakes and waterways upon the arrival of carp.

Standing on clear-cut hillsides with a bucket of garbage in each hand, they looked down on the rivers, saw carp swirling happily in the mess humans had created, and made a correlation - albeit the wrong one - between the rise of carp and the fall of game fish. Either ignorant of or blind to the damages they themselves had wrought on the landscape, people looked past the dredged and straightened channels, drained wetlands, eroded riverbanks, and waters laden with human and industrial waste, saw carp roiling in the shallows, and accused them of wrecking the water. (Buffler and Dickson, p. 74)."

Common carp can enhance fishing opportunities if properly managed like any other fish, people do fish for them with a passion that rivals bass/trout/muskie fishing, and more are every day..removing common carp does not mean bass, walleye and crappie fishing gets better, it seems it can make it worse by removing a major high nutritional prey item. Managing for better common carp fishing does not mean sacrificing quality fishing for bass/walleyes/trout/pike/muskies or even panfish

[Quillback]

All I can comment is on is what I see on the water.  I have never seen, in all the bass I have caught in Table Rock, a single one with a carp in it's gullet.  Shad, craws, brook silversides, and an occasional bluegill have been it.  I fish the dam end of Beaver every once in a while, clear water, and from what I can tell a healthy carp population.  The bass fishing is tough on that end of the lake.

I am not anti-carp, but I don't buy the argument that having a healthy carp population, leads to a healthy black bass population, at least in these Ozark highland lakes.

[Old plug]

I am just kind of happy I will not be around to see the results of all this fish catching mana of recent years. Then again the economy sxgoing to botom up all of a sudden and that is going to dontrol aclot of this distruction.