What Factors influence the Smallmouth population

[Jim Spriggs]

There is a consensus on one thing on this thread—the Spots are a problem.  So, I want to refocus attention on a solution, and the most effective seems to be aggressive harvest (meaning anglers taking what they catch, up to the 12 fish limit).  

But, this requires education because catch and release is (and should be) such a strong part of the bass angling culture; we need to get the word out to harvest Spots.  

Therefore, I think a publicity campaign is in order.  I mentioned some ideas above, and other ways are an article in the MDC Magazine and posts on social media websites.  

I’m a member of the MO Smallmouth Alliance, and I’m going to talk to them about it. 

Later, all you crazy river runners (and, yes, I’ve been told I might be a little obsessed with he river and fishing).  

[MoCarp]

quality signage at put-in and take out points work...I remember the voluntary C&R signs on Taney years ago....

[Flysmallie]

1 minute ago, MoCarp said:

quality signage at put-in and take out points work...

 

Just make sure that signage states that these fish must be consumed. We are going to have a real problem if people are going to start advocating tossing game fish on the bank. And I mean a serious problem. You can waste your time within the rules. 

[snagged in outlet 3]

5 minutes ago, MoCarp said:

quality signage at put-in and take out points work

I'll have to take a picture of the signage they have now at the accesses.  Honestly I never read them because I never use bait and I don't keep fish.

[Smalliebigs]

12 hours ago, Wart 57 said:

Caught a ton of them on Table Rock.  They are Meanmouth Bass .  Cross between a Smallie and Kentucky Spotted bass. Great Fighters and don't need to be removing or Killing them. PB  23.5  inches and 5.78 lbs in Cape Fair Area

 

wow!!! sweet fish!!!! congrats man that is a hawg!!!.....I personally love the length on the on the White river chain bass.....sooo cool

[Smalliebigs]

14 hours ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

I was not going to enter into this discussion as I saw no value in my participation. It was obvious of the agenda and the direction that this would take and I was not disappointed. 

But since Al did mention my name, the name that I hide behind on this forum, and since he did it with respect,  I thought I would oblige and give my thoughts and opinions. 

 

Over the years we have had many many discussions on this very subject. Some points we may agree on some points we may not. That is the nature of the beast. I am just going to briefly skim over points of fact and not get into a deep explanation.

 

First let us address why there are spotted bass in the Meramec system. This will be one of the areas where Al and I somewhat possibly disagree. I say that because from where the spotted bass came from nobody truly knows. They're only thoughts, opinions and theories.

 

 Spotted bass may have come from where Al thinks they may have come from as he pointed out in his previous post. But do not forget that spotted bass are native to the Mississippi and Ohio river systems and some of its tributaries. It is completely possible that those spotted bass came from those river systems. 

 

The question is why now have they sought to occupy the Meramec River system? Since the 1970s we have started to experience changes in our climate where it appears to be getting warmer. And that is one advantage for the spotted bass. We are now seeing many species of animals, birds, and fish thriving outside of their historical native ranges. 

 

Some areas are also experiencing a major shift in land use practices. And it is my understanding that the lower sections of the Meramec River system has experienced what could almost be classified as catastrophic land use practices. Just because the water looks great and the habitat appears to be there does not mean it is hospitable for all species. 

 

Over the years I have read many population density reports on stream bass from the MDC. In everyone of those reports the Spotted bass was a distant third in stream bass population densities. If I recollect correctly I think about the highest density I can recall seeing it was 20%. Obviously I have not read every density report and I can't even recall what stream reports I have read at this point. Some reports would show a high density a smallmouth over largemouth and others were just opposite. But that also had a lot to do with what section of stream they were doing such as upper versus middle or lower. But in every section the spotted bass was very low, relatively, on the list. I don't know if there has been a population density study on the lower Meramac. I'm sure it has been and that would be interesting to read. 

 

Electroshocking surveys are not the end-all to learning the exact populations of any stream section. But it is the best method of sampling we have to date. It is exactly what it says it is, a sampling to give you somewhat of an idea. Many fish, especially the larger fish, are able to escape the electronic field. The times that I have participated in this, we were only able to get about 10% of the population in any given pool that we were sampling. 

 

It is my consensus that electroshocking is far more accurate than angling. Being that I can fish the same section of river once each week for month and get different results every time. Some days you have a better smallmouth bite others you may have a better largemouth bite. Some days you have a really good mix of both. I've had days where I didn't catch anything but spotted bass. And then I can go for months in 

that exact same stretch and not catch one and only catch largemouth and smallmouth. It's really just the luck of the day on what your prevalent species will be. 

 

But when you do electroshocking sampling it doesn't matter what kind of mood they are in. If they get caught in the field they get caught. 

 

So for a small recap here's what we know. Something has changed the lower end of the Meramec River. Something has made it more hospitable to spotted bass then smallmouth. 

There are many factors at work here. Not just the Spot showing up.

Now, I'm ready to discuss.

Interesting Chief.....and I agree about the land use practices bigtime.....  in some cases I think it is criminal.

Don't bail out on the discussion your opinions are  very knowledgeable and come from an expert position IMO.

You have to realize our views and opinions are about something that we care about immensely.....just like you care about the unique Neosho strain and with good reason as they are absolutely extremely important to keep around. If Spots had invaded a native Neosho watershed where they weren't before and decimated their populations you would be concerned as well I think??

 

[Chief Grey Bear]

3 hours ago, Smalliebigs said:

Interesting Chief.....and I agree about the land use practices bigtime.....  in some cases I think it is criminal.

Don't bail out on the discussion your opinions are  very knowledgeable and come from an expert position IMO.

You have to realize our views and opinions are about something that we care about immensely.....just like you care about the unique Neosho strain and with good reason as they are absolutely extremely important to keep around. If Spots had invaded a native Neosho watershed where they weren't before and decimated their populations you would be concerned as well I think??

 

 I totally understand that and can appreciate that.  But you're going to have to face the fact that you are the parents of an ugly baby.  No parent wants to admit it but we all know sometimes it's true. 

 There are many factors that come into play that made it more favorable for spotted bass than it has smallmouth.  And land use practices does not mean just those along the stream bank.  It can be from many miles away. 

 There has been a major amount of urban sprawl over the decades in the lower Meramec River basin.  Each little ravine and spring creek, whether running or dry,  is a blood vessel feeding to the main artery.  Every time a lawn or golf course gets fertilized,  every time somebody dumped oil,  every time it snows and chemicals are put on the roads,  every time it just rains and washes off all the roads and ground clutter,  it all flows to the stream.  There is nothing healthy about that.  It doesn't matter what the habitat is. 

 When you add that up with everything else I mentioned in my previous post you wonder how anything survives.  But you don't have to believe me and you don't have to believe the MDC.  But it's true you have an ugly baby. 

[tjm]

So, I read this that Al thinks spotted bass got into the Meramec system from the Mississippi and Chief thinks they came from the Mississippi, is that it? How they got in the big river seems unimportant, that is where they came to the Meramec from?

Al says that even before the spotted bass got there there were stretches of river that were ideal habitat for them, spots weren't there then because they were still downstream. Once the spots found those ideal stretches of river they flourished, at the expense of smallmouth. So, by this observation those pieces of river must be more suitable for spotted bass than they are for smallmouth bass. I guess from his writings that Al has closely observed this river and so his opinion carries weight. 

Then the Jen from MDC comes along and says that certain stretches of this system are better habitat for spotted bass than for smallmouth , it appears to me that she is in agreement with Al, why is her opinion discounted?

[tjm]

2 minutes ago, Chief Grey Bear said:

And land use practices does not mean just those along the stream bank.  It can be from many miles away. 

I'm thinking in terms of temperature, paving on roads or mall parking lots heat all the rainfall several degrees before it hits the creeks, thus, warming the entire river; studies and reports I have read indicate that five degrees difference of temperature can make the difference between ideal and marginal habitat. I asked about shade trees bordering the river, because solid shade  keeps water cool.Temps and water color seem to be the dividing lines between perfect for smallmouth and perfect for spots. Fertility might be another remedy if there is a way to reduce it. 

As users of this river we are at the mercy of the landowners and the development they see fit to implement. imo, if the river stretches Al described were already ideal for spotted bass back in the 70s-80s-90s and land use/development has made those areas  warmer and/or more stained or turbid, you/we might be wasting time and money trying to reverse nature's process. Tilting windmills perhaps. Might be better to just examine how best to use spotted bass, have spotted bass only tournaments. Market spotted bass boats and tackle. Sell spotted bass T shirts. Make lemonade.

Maybe build  chilling stations to lower the river temperature of some feeder creeks. Start a program to reward landowners for planting/maintaining  timber adjacent to all the streams in the system.

Interesting thread, I've learned a couple of things.

[Dan Kreher]

Black Bass regs signage from MDC posted at access points in the Meramec River basin where spotted bass regulations have been liberalized. Based on our members observations during annual visits to most of the MDC stream access points across the Ozarks as part of our joint sign posting project with the MDC, we have found these signs to be present at the vast majority of the areas facing the "spotted bass invasion."

This sign was in real good shape compared to most.  

Spot harvest in action -- MSA Prez Matt Wier posting with the days take of spots on Bourbeuse River.