Ethanol fuel

[fishinwrench]

44 minutes ago, tjm said:

So the premium gas must have more alcohol than the E10?

The alcohol content tests the same AROUND HERE, but I don't see any benefit to running premium fuel.   Actually the shelf life of premium could be less..... since they don't sell as much of it.   

As I said, the only issue I recognize with today's fuel is....How long it can be stored, which appears to be about 4-6 weeks, tops.   Any longer than that and I can notice a difference.     

When setting the idle mixtures on carbureted engines after a complete fuel system overhaul, I can notice a difference on 1/4 turn of the mixture screw (jet) with fresh fuel.    With aged fuel I can turn those mixture screws 1/2-3/4 turn and barely be able to notice a difference.   That right there tells me everything I feel that I need to know.   I always set idle mixtures with fresh 87% fuel that I've had in my remote tank for less than 2 weeks.  

[tjm]

Yes Wrench, I agree with you in as far as the ethanol gas is concerned, and I think the summer blend may actually store better than the winter blend. And that is likely the biggest problem with using ethanol in machines that may set for weeks between uses, like motorcycles or boats over winter. Ethanol collects water from the air and ethanol tends to evaporate off more than other octane boosters, meaning that non-ethanol gasoline should store for longer times. “The most commonly used octane enhancer is ethanol, ... Ethanol was recognized in the 1920s as an effective octane enhancer, it just requires a lot — over 10% in gasoline. "

It's also notable that today's engines are all designed around ethanol as an octane booster and that they don't need high octane nor lead. The days of soft valve seats is long  past and the "rubber" parts are now designed to be comparable with ethanol. But the "instead of ethanol" in the "unleaded" "non-ethanol" fuel is most likely a compound containing one or more benzene rings, lower energy fuels like ethanol that help  reduce detonation  and dieseling. What some of the people that I know don't understand is that "higher octane" means "slower burning/lower energy" as compared to natural drip gas. “The strange thing about octane additives is that they are generally aren’t as good a fuel as the starting gasoline,”

Tetraethyl lead  is still available for those antique aircraft which are really the only engines that probably benefit from leaded and super high octane fuel, or perhaps race cars. Certainly not any consumer use engines made in the past 35 years.

My original question of "what do  they use instead of ethanol?"  was posed because other than lead, many of the octane boosters are more harmful than ethanol. Various metals (like a  manganese compound that was developed to replace lead and is now banned in some places) or iron mixtures and aromatic compounds that may and often do mess up sensors and catalytic converters. Looking at aftermarket "octane boosters"  many are mostly kerosene, which although harder to ignite than gas actually has lower octane. 

20-30 years ago I did have some two cycle engines fail due to early E10 breaking down the mix oil or causing fuel/oil separation, and I'm talking in fresh mixed fuel, but I'm told that current mix oils have been modified to alleviate that problem and that the only concern now is storage. Likely true, and i do use  E10 in the weed-wackers and sometimes in the chainsaws, but keeping track of the age of the gas mix with only occasional use of those tools makes me buy E-0 gas on occasion just to save on storage concerns.   If using the fuel up regularly is not a problem, (and I sometimes pour the older two stroke mix into the four stroke machines to get rid of it) my opinion is E10 is as good as we can get at the pump these days.  

 

 

[dan hufferd]

On 7/3/2024 at 6:17 PM, Terrierman said:

Are you old enough to remember white gas?  

I'm old enough to have seen it all done it all, I just can't remember it all.

[Terrierman]

4 hours ago, dan hufferd said:

I'm old enough to have seen it all done it all, I just can't remember it all.

Same here.  

[snagged in outlet 3]

4 hours ago, dan hufferd said:

done it all,

Pictures or it didn’t happen 😆

[skeeter]

Notice on all the links posted about where to buy "pure gas" that there is nowhere within a 100 mile Radius of the St. Louis Metro area where non-Ethanol gas is sold.  The nearest, as you travel West, is in Rolla. 

It took a lot of questioning and research several years ago to discover this is due to some "highly secret" agreement made with the un-elected Bureaucrats in the EPA to not sell non-Ethanol gas within that 100 mile radius.  Was it really a "secret" ?  Can't tell you for sure but it sure seems so due to the incredible difficulty it took to discover this fact and it was impossible to discover the reasoning for it or whom, at the retail end, agreed to this Policy. 

There is also some "agreement" that may have lapsed by now that only 91 Octane, or higher, non-Ethanol gas can be sold in Missouri while you could go into Arkansas and find both 87 and 89 non-Ethanol for sale.

Just a basic reminder that Gasoline and Ethanol have two different Specific Gravities and, left undisturbed, Gas will eventually separate and "float" on top while Ethanol will sink to the bottom of any fuel containment vessel.....and that is right where your motor's fuel intake is located.

[bfishn]

1 hour ago, skeeter said:

Notice on all the links posted about where to buy "pure gas" that there is nowhere within a 100 mile Radius of the St. Louis Metro area where non-Ethanol gas is sold.  The nearest, as you travel West, is in Rolla. 

It took a lot of questioning and research several years ago to discover this is due to some "highly secret" agreement made with the un-elected Bureaucrats in the EPA to not sell non-Ethanol gas within that 100 mile radius.  Was it really a "secret" ?  Can't tell you for sure but it sure seems so due to the incredible difficulty it took to discover this fact and it was impossible to discover the reasoning for it or whom, at the retail end, agreed to this Policy. 

There is also some "agreement" that may have lapsed by now that only 91 Octane, or higher, non-Ethanol gas can be sold in Missouri while you could go into Arkansas and find both 87 and 89 non-Ethanol for sale.

Just a basic reminder that Gasoline and Ethanol have two different Specific Gravities and, left undisturbed, Gas will eventually separate and "float" on top while Ethanol will sink to the bottom of any fuel containment vessel.....and that is right where your motor's fuel intake is located.

Or...

 

In Missouri and the St. Louis region, the availability of non-ethanol gasoline (pure gas) is influenced by a combination of state regulations, local market demand, and specific regional policies. Here are the key factors specific to Missouri and the St. Louis area:

1. Missouri State Regulations:

   • Missouri Renewable Fuel Standard: Missouri has its own Renewable Fuel Standard that mandates the blending of ethanol into gasoline. The standard requires most gasoline sold in the state to contain 10% ethanol (E10). This regulation is a significant factor limiting the widespread availability of non-ethanol gasoline.
   • Exemptions for Specific Uses: Missouri allows exemptions for the use of non-ethanol gasoline in specific applications such as marine engines, small engines (like lawnmowers and chainsaws), and classic or collector vehicles. These exemptions help ensure that non-ethanol gasoline is available for these particular uses.

2. Local Market Demand:

   • Consumer Preferences in St. Louis: In the St. Louis region, there is a noticeable demand for non-ethanol gasoline, particularly among boat owners, owners of classic cars, and users of small engines. This demand supports the availability of pure gas in certain local gas stations that cater to these consumers.
   • Availability in Rural vs. Urban Areas: Non-ethanol gasoline tends to be more readily available in rural areas compared to urban centers like St. Louis. This is because rural consumers often use it for farming equipment, recreational vehicles, and other non-automotive engines.

3. Environmental Regulations:

   • Federal and State Air Quality Standards: St. Louis, as part of the St. Louis metropolitan area, has to comply with both federal and state air quality standards. These standards are designed to reduce pollutants and improve air quality. Ethanol-blended fuels are often promoted as a means to achieve better air quality, contributing to the prevalence of E10 in the region.

4. Economic Factors:

   • Subsidies and Incentives: There are federal and state subsidies and incentives for ethanol production and blending. These economic factors make ethanol-blended gasoline more financially attractive for producers and retailers, which in turn affects the availability of non-ethanol gasoline.

5. Local Distribution:

   • Supply Chain: The supply chain logistics for non-ethanol gasoline in Missouri are more complex due to the infrastructure being predominantly geared towards ethanol-blended fuels. However, distributors that cater to niche markets, such as marinas and specialty vehicle owners, ensure that non-ethanol gasoline is available in selected locations.

In summary, the availability of non-ethanol gasoline in Missouri and specifically in the St. Louis region is shaped by state regulations mandating ethanol blends, local market demand for pure gas in specific applications, environmental standards aimed at reducing emissions, economic incentives favoring ethanol use, and logistical considerations in the fuel supply chain. Despite these factors, certain localities within the region do provide non-ethanol gasoline to meet the needs of specific consumer groups.

[tjm]

1 hour ago, skeeter said:

There is also some "agreement" that may have lapsed by now that only 91 Octane, or higher, non-Ethanol gas can be sold in Missouri while you could go into Arkansas and find both 87 and 89 non-Ethanol for sale.

That was publicized as being a state law  back when the politicians owned the corn and distillery businesses, maybe they still do, but if the law had an end date or has since been repealed, I haven't heard of it.

[dblades]

My main problem with ethonal is the amount of water it takes to manufacture it, if I remember right, 7 gallon of water for a gallon of ethonal. 

[Terrierman]

On 7/8/2024 at 9:47 AM, snagged in outlet 3 said:

Pictures or it didn’t happen 😆

Would T-shirts would be acceptable as proof?