What Factors influence the Smallmouth population

[thewhitesnoop]

Gravel dredging is not good for most streams. The larger the stream, the less it is affected.

Otters should be #1 on our list of ALL concerns.

[MoCarp]

9 hours ago, SpoonDog said:

 

...triploid fish are sterile.  Their genetic advantage is they never have to allocate energy towards eggs and milt, which means that genetic advantage will never be conferred to their offspring.  They're  Eunuchs.  Dump a bunch of sterile fish into a stream hoping they'll mate with the natives to produce better fishing through superior genetics, and you'll be sorely disappointed.  What's more- you'll have fast growing fish which can't spawn competing with slower-growing native fish which CAN spawn- depressing the entire population overall.  You're not just doing nothing, you're putting considerable effort into making things worse.

That's why it's so important the people understand genetics before leaping to it as a cure-all.

yatch slaps spoondog.......yes they are sterile....not effectively reproducing much even if they are not triploids..THATS why its called put and take...

as far are genetic management its important....IMHO the most important part of stream management going forward (besides source point pollution)

4 hours ago, Jim Spriggs said:

Thanks, Al, I wasn’t aware of any of the Spotted bass history.  That’s fascinating (and unfortunate) stuff.  

Has there been any serious discussion by MDC to eliminate creel or size limits on Spots in any of the creek or river systems those fish have populated?  Has MO Smallmouth Alliance or any other group lobbied MDC on this issue?  

 

I would like to see bag and length limits removed from spotted bass in smallmouth streams, along with a vigorous stocking program with (share a lunker style) better trait native smallies

[Smalliebigs]

5 hours ago, Hog Wally said:

Jennifer told me it's because the river below state park becomes less suitable for smallmouth  especially big smallmouth.  Like the stclair area(according to Jen) is not suitable smallmouth habitat.   Yes, I have that in writing.  I find her information hard to believe.  Everything she has told me from walleye to smallmouth goes against everything I have seen 

ding ding ding ding......winner winner chicken dinner.....She has told me things that are just rediculous

[snagged in outlet 3]

1 hour ago, Smalliebigs said:

She has told me things that are just rediculous

That you're a handsome man of the world and a great fisherman??

[Smalliebigs]

1 hour ago, snagged in outlet 3 said:

That you're a handsome man of the world and a great fisherman??

exactly hahahahaha

[MoCarp]

3 hours ago, Smalliebigs said:

ding ding ding ding......winner winner chicken dinner.....She has told me things that are just rediculous

BULLS EYE!

2 hours ago, snagged in outlet 3 said:

That you're a handsome man of the world and a great fisherman??

NO SOUP FOR YOU! me thinks snagged would get us in trouble in a bar..."look at her what a butt on her"..."what did you say about my girl?"...oh snap!

[Gavin]

Thanks for the numbers Jim. A little bored (sitting through a webinar today) so I ran their numbers. Their sample rate per hour drops from 45-50 an hour to 25 and hour at the Huzzah data point, then its about 17-18 an hour from Sappington on down to River Round where it drops to 10 an hour.. I'm not sure what causes that. The river is significantly bigger below the Huzzah, so maybe their shock boat isn't as effective,. The habitat does seem to change there, bigger wider, big huge gravel bars. Maybe its pressure because it is all jet boatable. Big  fish (RSD18) do seem to turn up more frequently as a percentage of fish sampled  below the Huzzah. Maybe the bigger ones move downsteam in search of bigger forage (shad). It would be interesting to see some data from samples taken below the Bourbeuse.

[Hog Wally]

8 minutes ago, Gavin said:

Thanks for the numbers Jim. A little bored (sitting through a webinar today) so I ran their numbers. Their sample rate per hour drops from 45-50 an hour to 25 and hour at the Huzzah data point, then its about 17-18 an hour from Sappington on down to River Round where it drops to 10 an hour.. I'm not sure what causes that. The river is significantly bigger below the Huzzah, so maybe their shock boat isn't as effective,. The habitat does seem to change there, bigger wider, big huge gravel bars. Maybe its pressure because it is all jet boatable. Big  fish (RSD18) do seem to turn up more frequently as a percentage of fish sampled  below the Huzzah. Maybe the bigger ones move downsteam in search of bigger forage (shad). It would be interesting to see some data from samples taken below the Bourbeuse.

Below the bourbuese the habitat is weird at best   Very long flats of 1' to 3' water.   Small fishable pockets here and there   Easy to electrofish though.   Should be obvious where the fish are. Some of the biggest smallmouth I have seen in Missouri were below bourbuese and above rte 66 park. We were gigging in the 90's through that area a lot.   I was young man so my perception of size could've been unreliable but we talked of those giants we seen, for years.  I know, doesn't really jive with the data. 

[Smalliebigs]

1 hour ago, Hog Wally said:

Below the bourbuese the habitat is weird at best   Very long flats of 1' to 3' water.   Small fishable pockets here and there   Easy to electrofish though.   Should be obvious where the fish are. Some of the biggest smallmouth I have seen in Missouri were below bourbuese and above rte 66 park. We were gigging in the 90's through that area a lot.   I was young man so my perception of size could've been unreliable but we talked of those giants we seen, for years.  I know, doesn't really jive with the data. 

man.....come on Aaron. Data???? hahahahahahahaha.... You and I have seen the electro shocking boats shocking and where they were shocking was not the area you  would be if you were actually looking for fish to float up to the surface hahahahahahahaha.

The data is only as good as the process in which it was collected......Mitch and I have had lengthy conversations about this very subject.

How difinitive can the data be if it is not collected and preserved or analyzed correctly or accurately.

The river is more fertile below the Huzzah than above.

Aaron has seen more on that river of it's biodiversity and it's creatures than 99.9% of us.

Before Spotted bass My dad and I used to nail so many huge Smallmouth from Pacific to Times Beach I can't tell you.

My half brother who has passed away was on a MDC boat in 1996 while attending Mizzou electro shocking......they shocked up a Smallie that was very very hush hush....he claimed it was a state record by a length and girth measurement. He wanted to go get a scale and they wouldn't let him.....he only has an old Nokia 865 phone without a camera. I can remember his voice when he called me freaking the hell out from the ramp. He was an avid river fisherman who never exaggerated like most....similar to Aaron.

The Lower and mid Meramec has and produces bigger fish than above the Huzzah.....just not as abundant now 

[Dan Kreher]

I've not seen anyone reply yet with regards to the MDC regulations with respect to spotted bass in the Meramec basin.

Regs for spotted bass in the Meramec, Big, Bourbeuse, Huzzah, Courtois and Mineral Fork creeks and there tributaries include:

No Minimum Length Limit

A daily/possession limit of 12 black bass no more than 6 of which may be a combination of largemouth and smallmouth bass -- so you could keep up to 12 spotted bass if you did not keep any largemouth or smallmouth

In Smallmouth Bass Special Management Areas (essentially all of Big River, Meramec from Hwy 8 bridge to Birds Nest, Mineral Fork from Hwy F to Big River) within the Meramec Basin -- the smallmouth regs are a 15" MLL and 1 SMB daily/possession limit

Closed Season (C&R only) on all black bass from March 1 to Friday before 4th Saturday in May

These liberalized MLL and creel limit regs are spotted bass were adopted by the MDC around 2000 (I cannot recall the specific year enacted) following significant input from anglers, members of the Missouri Smallmouth Alliance including Mr. Al Agnew.

I have not seen much actual data from the MDC on how many spotted bass are actually being kept by anglers since the reg change. However, it appears that the change has done little to curb their numbers within the majority of the Meramec Basin having suitable spot habitat as discussed throughout this thread.  

Good input from the group on the spotted bass issue -- particularly enjoyed reading Al's history lesson.