Al Gore

[MoCarp]

https://goo.gl/images/UXpuvi

[Flysmallie]

I thought this was actually going to be an intelligent topic but then I forgot where I was. 

Have fun with your make believe ideas about everything. 

[tjm]

Quote

" A two-megawatt windmill contains 260 tonnes of steel requiring 170 tonnes of coking coal and 300 tonnes of iron ore, all mined, transported and produced by hydrocarbons."

Wonder what that cost is in  total carbon?

I also wonder if any one has ever studied the down wind effect of wild mill created turbulence, if a butterfly wing can change air motion enough to cause a storm on the other side of the planet, what long range/long term effect might wind farms cause? It wold have to be a theoretical study or mathematical model, but has it ever even been considered?

[MOPanfisher]

As the old saying goes, ain't no free lunches.  Every upgrade in technology comes with some cost.  Much of what is happening now is the early stages of a major technology shift, electrical power generation, storage and usage, solar, wind, tidal, hydro electric etc.  No one thinks that internal combustion engine are going away in the next 10 years, that just isn't gonna happen.  But if nobody ever embraced new technology and changes, we would still be rowing boats and using horses for everything.  Here is a question for the smarter than me folks, if Dyson can make a fan without blades, why can't a wind generator b designed with out blades, understand it wouldn't be as efficient but would certain calm down the groups that say wind farms are killing all the wildlife.

[fishinwrench]

2 hours ago, Flysmallie said:

I thought this was actually going to be an intelligent topic but then I forgot where I was.

There can't be an intelligent conversation until everyone in the crowd has shared their thoughts. 

The guy that concludes that everyone in the room is stupid, but doesn't care to explain why all of their thoughts are flawed is what keeps the "intelligent conversation" from happening.   

Ya gotta start somewhere !

[fishinwrench]

8 minutes ago, MOPanfisher said:

Here is a question for the smarter than me folks, if Dyson can make a fan without blades, why can't a wind generator b designed with out blades, understand it wouldn't be as efficient but would certain calm down the groups that say wind farms are killing all the wildlife.

I'm not claiming to be smarter than anyone, but it is my understanding that a wind generator cannot generate enough power, before it has to be replaced, to pay for another wind generator, even taking into consideration that the materials can be recycled.   Therefore it is a looser.   

Kinda like paying 20.00 for every 5.00 bill.  You're investing poorly.  

[MOPanfisher]

3 minutes ago, fishinwrench said:

I'm not claiming to be smarter than anyone, but it is my understanding that a wind generator cannot generate enough power, before it has to be replaced, to pay for another wind generator, even taking into consideration that the materials can be recycled.   Therefore it is a looser.   

Kinda like paying 20.00 for every 5.00 bill.  You're investing poorly.  

That may be true right now, but the price of electricity is not getting cheaper nor is the demand going down worldwide.  When the cost of electricity and the cost to produce "greener" power meet, assuming it ever does the calculations will change.  Reservoirs that provide drinking water are becoming more important as the cost of proving water rises as well.  The price of a high worldwide population isn't cheap.

[tjm]

Wind power isn't new technology, even as generators they have been "perfecting" it since at least the 1970s and Don Quixote was  fighting windmills in 1605.

The tidal stuff might be viable, the Brits supposedly had working systems in the early '70s that were said to be cost effective.  I don't know why we have never given that a shot, at least tides are consistent and somewhat predictable.

The beauty of wind generation is most wind comes at night when the demand is low and the power can't be stored ; the  when peak demand happens there  is no way to turn the wind on.  Further "perfection" of this technology needs to be investment driven, and the subsidies need to stop.

The key to a better world is to stop using electricity and plastic,  even a cold turkey stop tomorrow wouldn't offset the damage those two lifestyles have already created in less than a century. If it takes another 50 years to understand that no matter how you make these things the cost exceeds the benefits, it will be too late- may already be too late.  What we have been doing in this country is sweeping our crap under a rug and telling ourselves we solved the problem. We cleaned up our industry by sending it to other countries that don't care and have no restrictions, maybe resulting in worse overall pollution of the planet- but we convince ourselves we did a wonderful thing.

[Terrierman]

1 hour ago, fishinwrench said:

I'm not claiming to be smarter than anyone, but it is my understanding that a wind generator cannot generate enough power, before it has to be replaced, to pay for another wind generator, even taking into consideration that the materials can be recycled.   Therefore it is a looser.   

Kinda like paying 20.00 for every 5.00 bill.  You're investing poorly.  

The energy costs have to be included in the cost to build and install a wind turbine.  A wind turbine with a design life 20 years is a net energy producer within five to eight months of installation.  Break even on total installed cost, not just energy is around five years.   Do you know that the cost/MW of wind is lower than the cost /MW for new coal fired power station?  Do you ever research anything or just parrot what you "understand"?

[snagged in outlet 3]

We made 900 40’ 36” diameter steel columns for this company back in 2009 and when the project went belly up we bought our own pipe back for 25 cents on the dollar after they paid us market for it.  It was still sitting in our yard, we never shipped one joint.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amonix