North Fork issue

[Flyfisher for men]

On 1/6/2021 at 9:37 PM, fishinwrench said:

 

The story I heard/read (on the Internet) was that a railcar was loaded with McCloud Rainbows, and was actually headed out East somewhere...... but low and behold... "the train stalled out and they weren't going to be able to get it going again for several days.  So knowing that all the little trout par would perish before reaching their intended destination, the railroad crew took it upon themselves to haul them, from the water filled rail car, in milk cannisters to the nearest stream.....which JUST SO HAPPENED TO BE Crane creek".  

 

Sheesh🙄  Such an utterly heroic tale to tell, but also a galactic crock of bull.    Reminds me of the giant catfish the size of Cadillacs stories, near every dam that was ever built.

I believe our pal Al Agnew even did a painting for MDC, depicting an old 1930's MDC pickup and a MDC agent dumping a milk cannister into a stream.   Hell, I don't think we  even had a Missouri dept. of Conservation back then.   And if we did then how did the railroad guys contact them.  Morse code?

_..  .._. ___   .. __  ..._  __._.    .._.   __..  ...__.  ..__.    which translates to:.   Help Come Now Crane Mo Have Free Trout You Make Money 

This much can be said: trout were reproducing in Crane Creek in 1893. The following quote cites two sources from 1893 mentioning it. Unfortunately, there is no information on how the fish actually got there.  

"In 1893, the superintendent of the Neosho Federal Fish Hatchery also reported that rainbow trout were reproducing in Spring River, Meramec River, and Crane Creek (1893 annual report and daily log of the Neosho Federal Fish Hatchery, Neosho, Missouri)."

The quote is from a 1979 report of the MDC on the history of wild trout in Missouri.  There is an appendix that notes rainbow trout released into Crane Creek in 1890, the listing apparently based on records from the Neosho fish hatchery.

Whatever the truth of the railroad story, the Neosho hatchery appears to have planted at least some of the trout, monitored them, and then put it in an official report in 1893. 

 

Here's the 1979  report: http://www.mtfa-springfield.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Life-History-of-Wild-Rainbow-Trout-in-Missouri.pdf

 

[fishinwrench]

3 hours ago, Flyfisher for men said:

This much can be said: trout were reproducing in Crane Creek in 1893. The following quote cites two sources from 1893 mentioning it. Unfortunately, there is no information on how the fish actually got there.  

"In 1893, the superintendent of the Neosho Federal Fish Hatchery also reported that rainbow trout were reproducing in Spring River, Meramec River, and Crane Creek (1893 annual report and daily log of the Neosho Federal Fish Hatchery, Neosho, Missouri)."

I'm having some trouble grasping this.   Why was there a Neosho federal fish hatchery in the 1890's when there was no reasonable way to transport fish to or from there?  

Life back then, when you think about it, was tough as hell compared to anything post 1920.  

To think that anyone was even remotely concerned about sport fishing and wildlife conservation at that time is absolutely mind boggling.

[Gavin]

Think the first MO Trout Hatchery was in Aurora, MO and it was private, post civil war era. The US Fish Commission was formed in that era as well and they got into the business of distributing trout and “pacific salmon” all over the place. Some lived, some did not. Not sure how long Neosho has been in business, but 1890-1920 seems about right. 1940’s pre WW2 CCC buildings are abundant around the trout parks, so something was there before.

[Nathan Phenix]

I float Northfork a lot and enjoy catching trout (prefer smallmouth) but as far as fixing the trout population I dont see it happening. The banks are bare no shade on lower end. I believe the water is warmer. And I saw couple 2 or 3 hundred stripers on lower end (no doubt they are eating everything that moves) Here my 2 cents the dam wont ever be replaced because risk of people being hurt or killed. Without the dam no stopping the lake fish from running up. I believe the great trout fishing on NF is ran its course. 

[Mitch f]

13 hours ago, fishinwrench said:

Otters have become victims of propaganda.  Bad press.  I've never seen the need to declare war on them.  

I don’t believe this is true. The trappers have helped keep them at bay which has definitely helped. I think the MDC misjudged how well they could proliferate. 

[Flyfisher for men]

7 hours ago, fishinwrench said:

I'm having some trouble grasping this.   Why was there a Neosho federal fish hatchery in the 1890's when there was no reasonable way to transport fish to or from there?  

Life back then, when you think about it, was tough as hell compared to anything post 1920.  

To think that anyone was even remotely concerned about sport fishing and wildlife conservation at that time is absolutely mind boggling.

 

It is mind-boggling, Wrench. I teach history besides being in the clergy, so I can't explaining more.

Transporting fish wouldn't be as hard as you might think. The technology actually existed. For instance, the refrigerated boxcar was already around from the cattle drives (they butcher in Chicago and ship the meat east). Aeration could be accomplished with a hand bellows or a hand pump. I don't know when they developed electrical aerators, but it's not out of the question. Battery power was developed by then. 

By that time, the country was linked together by railroads so getting access to trout was not an issue. I looked at some old rail maps online and Neosho itself was connected to the entire national network. Get on a  train in Neosho and you could go to any state in the lower 48. Wikipedia, FWIW, says the hatchery  was established in 1888 because of its railroad links and water supply. It's on the route to St. Louis and that was in place by 1890. It gets you very close to Crane.

Here's an 1890 map:  http://www.davidrumsey.com/maps1140084-30557.html .

Incidentally, my modern Delorme's Atlas has a  connection from that line through modern Crane. I don't know when it was built, but  I did see an online map from 1900 that shows the connection existing by 1900.

This all leads me to a suspicion that the railroad story may have some truth to it, but the fish actually came from the hatchery rather than direct from California, maybe even as part of a planned stocking.  

In any case, the rail link to St. Louis (basically today's U.S. 44)  was long established and that gets you close to Crane Creek. Put a tank on a wagon with a guy to manipulate a hand pump for aeration, and you have the means to get the trout from a train to Crane Creek.  

I understand when you say it's a little astounding to see the doing this sort of thing so early. If you look at that report, you'll see the appendix lists them trying to put salmon into Missouri in 1878. Needless to say, it didn't work, but give them credit for trying. Few had any sense of the science involved. Here in Kansas, they thought they could change the climate of the Great plains by plowing the soil and releasing ground moisture into the air. 

[fishinwrench]

Interesting indeed.  Alot of things related to the forming of this country just blow my mind.

I mean.....prior to 1863....Who paid for it all???    There wasn't enough tax money being collected at that time to even buy a bowl of beans for a crew of railroad workers.   Much less a fair living wage for all involved.

Prior to drivers licenses, birth certificates, SSN's, and other forced actions there was no way to keep a thumb on people.   Matter of fact, the only REAL reason that the government gives food stamps and free money to people NOW is because without having them standing there with their hands out, there would be no other way to have any control over them.   Nobody, aside from their family, would even know who they were, or if they even existed. 

A census would be like trying to count the number of field mice in the country.  They put on this humanitarian facade to make it look like they just CARE about every living person, but it doesn't take much of a brain to figure out the real reason why they "care".  

[Flyfisher for men]

3 hours ago, fishinwrench said:

Interesting indeed.  Alot of things related to the forming of this country just blow my mind.

I mean.....prior to 1863....Who paid for it all???   

 

Tariffs and government land sales were the main sources of revenue.

There wasn't much to pay for, either. The Postal Service was about the only contact anyone had with the federal government before the Civil War, and it was self-sustaining. The army had something like 10,000 men. Roads, railroads, bridges, etc. were state projects or privately financed.

We really didn't have income tax permanently till the early 20th century, not by coincidence after the land has been settled and there's no more to sell. Along with it,  there's been development and it needs some order. For instance, you now you need a railroad commissioner and an agency to regulate them. Hence, we get the income tax in the early 1900s. (Just send our money in and everything is great! 😉)

State taxes I'm not as knowledgeable. There were property taxes and so on at the local levels.  Also excise taxes. 

 

[Ham]

Weird to be bragging about being a poacher. If I see that happen, I’m going to try to get the perpetrator to answer for it. Really crappy thing to wantonly kill wildlife that you are not harvesting for food. 

[tjm]

15 hours ago, Flyfisher for men said:

history

You can find history of the fisheries https://library.noaa.gov/Collections/Digital-Documents/Fish-Comm-Annual-Rep#:~:text=The United States Commission of Fish and Fisheries,name was changed to the Bureau of Fisheries.

On 1/9/2021 at 1:34 AM, fishinwrench said:

To think that anyone was even remotely concerned about sport fishing and wildlife conservation at that time is absolutely mind boggling.

They weren't The US Fish Commission was concerned with commercial fisheries and with sustenance fisheries, Sport Fishing is a post WW2 development, result of redistributed wealth and disposable time.

As to the Crane stocking it was either before 1887 or not from the McCloud river per Rik Hafer- https://www.joplinglobe.com/news/lifestyles/rik-hafer-missouri-marks-140-year-history-with-trout-this-summer/article_f5e55ec9-34d9-5cb3-a964-6ab108cc46ad.html

"Fish culturists quickly discovered how easy it was to propagate rainbows in hatchery conditions. This made the McCloud River operation redundant. In fact, one of the last shipments of rainbow eggs from the McCloud came to Missouri in 1887. State hatcheries or a federal hatchery such as the one in Neosho have supplied rainbows for stocking ever since."

Missouri Fish Commission had a hatchery at St. Joseph, I think, and possibly others, probably the source of most Mo. stockings in the late 1800s.  I seem to recall a Federal Hatchery in St. Louis, but think they were establishing German Carp rather than trout.  It is notable too that the Feds attempted to establish salmon in Mo. (I don't recall details but think it was the Mo. River) with the intent that the salmon would travel to the Gulf and return here to spawn. Fish science of the 19th century was a bit hazy.