Fuel

[Flysmallie]

1 hour ago, dan hufferd said:

I'm no electrical engineer, but I work with a couple.

I hope they can make it work, or something clean and sustainable.

I hope someone cracks the code to recycle lithium, in a cost effective clean way. 

I don't like where and how we get lithium now, at least as far as I understand it.

Well we have done it again, we are way down the rabbit hole. But I like it.

The lithium process is dirty. No doubt about it. But lithium might not be the choice of the future. 

 

 

[Flysmallie]

Here's a perfect example of the ignorance. 

Yes lithium is dirty for now. But the process for bringing oil up from the ground and refining it isn't clean. At least the lithium will last a while before it just goes poof into the atmosphere. 

[tjm]

What this country needs is a really good perpetual motion machine that even powers itself on startup.

 

[Flysmallie]

11 minutes ago, tjm said:

What this country needs is a really good perpetual motion machine that even powers itself on startup.

 

 

And this is why there will never be any intelligent conversations on the subject. 

[tjm]

 Is there enough lithium in the world to produce 1.8 billion cars (that would be close to full conversion)  over the next 10-20 years?

What is the total cost in other energies to mine. extract and refine that amount of lithium? and how much carbon fuel is now being used to produce each EV. (include all raw materials, and  all the lights in the factories etc) ?  How does that energy cost compare with f.ex a bio fueled car?

Could it be  economical to extract Li from seawater in the conversion to fresh water?

Have we found a way to harness the worlds tidal energy to electricity?

[bfishn]

Potentially good news on the lithium front;

https://www.fastcompany.com/90735227/geothermal-plants-lithium-boost-ev-battery-industry

 

[jdmidwest]

Maybe harness the energy of the runners at the border on a treadmill and convert to electrical power?  Over a million crossings so far this year, going to surpass last years record.

[Al Agnew]

Thing is, guys, that problems with "clean" energy sources that we see now won't necessarily be problems in the future.  Technology can be a wonderful thing.  But you can't get there from here unless you start getting there.  You start with what we have, lithium batteries for instance.  And you make the decision that we are going in this direction, and start working to improve battery technology, and more importantly, give innovators incentives to improve battery technology by showing that is the direction we plan to go.

Regarding MOcarp's graphic photos of failed wind turbines...yup, they kill birds.  In fact, in some places there is an employee that works daylight to dark at the wind turbine farm watching for eagles.  If he sees an eagle headed toward a turbine, he shuts down the turbines that are in the eagle's path.  Because that's more economical than paying the fine for killing the eagle.  But that doesn't mean present wind turbines can't be improved to kill fewer eagles.  And as for turbines blowing up from too much wind, that's a problem that was pretty much fixed once it happened a few times.  Now the turbines sense when the wind is getting close to overloading them and shut themselves down.  Again, the earlier technology isn't the end-all and be-all.

I may have said this here before...I've certainly said it elsewhere.  But we made a huge tactical error as a country when we turned the production and transmission of electricity over to private, for-profit companies.  Because by necessity electric power is a monopoly.  But also, because it's so necessary to have reliable electricity that we can't easily turn away from the path we're on.  But consider this...I have an off-grid solar powered cabin.  I've had solar power for going on four years now, and it's been perfectly reliable with two exceptions.  One, it was slightly undersized, so it doesn't always keep up completely with the demand we put on it.  And two, the interface between the backup propane-powered generator and the solar system has failed on two occasions, both while we were absent, and the generator didn't shut off when it should have but kept running until it ran out our propane tank (an expensive failure!).  But, the point is that the solar is pretty darned reliable now and wasn't prohibitively expensive.  It requires little maintenance and it works beautifully (cabin has a fridge, microwave, propane furnace, water well pump, propane on demand water heater, and can handle anything we want to power, including such things as charging my trolling motor batteries at night).  Which brings me to the point I was about to make...

It would be ideal right now and certainly in the future if electric power was far less centralized.  If every home had their own electric power generation, like rooftop solar or any other small scale type of power generation, depending upon what would work best in their location.  And/or, if municipalities had their own power generation systems, from small scale solar farms to methane from household waste to any of a number of other systems...maybe if they were located on a river, run of the river hydro, for instance.  And all these little systems were tied to the regional electric grid, with the grid there mainly to supplement the power when a home system or municipal system failed or couldn't keep up.  Yeah, won't work with the present grid system, because the grid wouldn't be a profit generator anymore.  But look at the upside...you'd have a huge new industry geared toward producing, installing, and maintaining all these small scale power systems; it would be the next big thing making the economy boom.  You'd be able to get rid of every coal-fired power plant.  You wouldn't even need those big wind farms (which, if nothing else, are a horror to live next to).  And...you'd have power generation that was not vulnerable to natural disasters or terrorist attacks.

Pie in the sky?  Maybe.  I don't know all the ins and outs of keeping up a grid just to supplement all the small scale power generation.  But smarter people than me think this could work.  But we've gone so far down the road of electricity being a profit engine for a bunch of industries that it's really difficult to change it. 

[fishinwrench]

1 hour ago, Al Agnew said:

graphic photos of failed wind turbines...yup, they kill birds.  In fact, in some places there is an employee that works daylight to dark at the wind turbine farm watching for eagles.  If he sees an eagle headed toward a turbine, he shuts down the turbines that are in the eagle's path.  Because that's more economical than paying the fine for killing the eagle.  But that doesn't mean present wind turbines can't be improved to kill fewer eagles.  And as for turbines blowing up from too much wind, that's a problem that was pretty much fixed once it happened a few times.  Now the turbines sense when the wind is getting close to overloading them and shut themselves down.  Again, the earlier technology isn't the end-all and be-all

As I understand it, eagles and birds are the least of the wind turbines problems.   The biggest, is the fact that an individual wind turbine can't produce enough power in its usable lifetime to even pay for its construction.....much less make anyone any profit.    And if nobody can profit from them except the folks that erect them,  then.......yeah 🙄.    Pfffft !    

It's a circle of financial death, and a total waste of copper, graphine, and magnets.   Insurance companies that will write policy's on them are rapidly either bailing out completely......or only offering premiums that even further reduce any potential benefit of their ownership.   

[fishinwrench]

My daughter is currently in Athens, Ga. helping design a bio-mass plant.   These plants burn sawdust/wood chips/and giant compressed cubes of the garbage that we all generate, to make steam.   The exhaust is somehow made safe (clean) by filtering through an ammonia mist and recirculated numerous times before being expelled back into the environment.   Giant drip-legs even collect and recirculate moisture so that very little water is wasted.  

Currently this is the only "green" power plant design that doesn't require major funding by the government and their so called "renewable energy credits" (which are slowly and deliberately bleeding us all dry). 

These plants are designed to completely pay for themselves, and their lifetime operational costs, in 14-17 years, and will last long enough, with minimal maintenance, to supply enough power to support their grid for at least 40-45 years.   

The only byproduct is ASH which can be used to build better roads, sidewalks, parking lots, and concrete foundations. 

It's pretty cool, I think.   And raking leaves or picking up trash along the roads may eventually be a lucrative endeavor for those like my worthless step-son who CAN'T SEEM TO FIND (or keep) A JOB. 🙄