Mega Longear Sunfish

[fishinwrench]

11 minutes ago, Flysmallie said:

Not disagreeing with what you said Al. But what some are misunderstanding is that if you want the laws changed then you need to do something more than act like an asshat on a forum. Attacking other members that are only trying to share their LEGAL accomplishments because you don't agree is wrong. If you want to drive change you have to do more than that. 

And I don't have the proof to back it up but I would be willing to bet money that sight fishing causes more damage than spearfishing ever will. Yeah I still have to get that fish to bite but if you practice you would be amazed at how easy that is sometimes. 

I don't think anyone is trying to change the world, or even the rules.  One thing I hate most is RULES & REGULATIONS, but they are often needed because too many people (including myself at times) are ignorant in their choices. 

Speaking your mind on a forum like this might annoy or piss off certain folks but it does make us think about things differently sometimes.  I have had my views changed about several things because of thoughts folks have shared here.  And on other forums as well.  Even if my attitude about something doesn't get altered one bit I still walk away smarter/wiser after hearing opposing arguments.

[Flysmallie]

Just now, fishinwrench said:

Speaking your mind on a forum like this might annoy or piss off certain folks but it does make us think about things differently sometimes.  

 

I agree with that too. And I have been a part of the C&R tournament debates and voiced my opinion. But sometimes you get that certain member that just won't stop. And never has anything positive to add. We can't get rid of you no matter what craziness you spew, there are boats that need repair. But if your skill is Google Images then maybe calm it down a little. 

[Devan S.]

1 hour ago, Al Agnew said:

Well, this has been an entertaining thread!

Just a few thoughts...and believe it or not, not piling on MoCarp:

I think the problem some of us have with spearfishing, and what some of you may be misunderstanding, is the same as the problem we have with illegal gigging.  It has the potential of selectively taking the bigger fish out of the population.  MDC says, and all of us agree, that gigging doesn't affect overall gamefish populations.  The AR people surely think the same thing about spearfishing.  But what it can do is affect the already far, far smaller population of trophy fish.  

I'll be the first to admit I don't know how difficult it is to spearfish.  I don't know how easy it is to find the big fish to spear them, and how easy it is to approach them close enough to do so.  So I will have to assume it's not easy.  But the difference between it and rod and reel angling is that the rod and reel angler has NO way of specifically targeting the bigger fish in the population, other than fishing where big fish supposedly live, or sight fishing bass off beds.  For the most part, they can't go along, see a big bass or walleye, and catch it.  Even on the rare occasions when they could see it, they couldn't MAKE the fish bite.  But the spearfisherman could theoretically swim along until the see a big bass, skipping the smaller ones in between, and shoot it.

In part, this is a bit of jealousy on the part of the rod and reel angler.  The spearfisherman is killing the big fish that he wants to have the chance at catching.  But consider this...there aren't many spearfishermen, and they obviously don't kill huge numbers of big fish.  But there aren't huge numbers of big fish to be killed.  If 1% of the population of legal walleye is over 8 pounds, that's a small pool of big ones to begin with.  Every one of them taken out has a far greater impact on their numbers than a few barely legal ones taken out of the far greater population of legal walleye.

It's NOT a matter of taking them out of the gene pool.  A big fish has already passed along its genes multiple times.  It's a matter of taking them out of the tiny pool of trophy size fish.  Maybe, that pool would be a bit larger if they weren't taken out, whether it be by spearfishermen or by rod and reel anglers.

Which brings me to one of my pet peeves...I don't know enough about the walleye in the White River lakes to know their genetics, but the native river strain walleye that were originally in these waters had exceptional genes for growing big.  Probably the stocking of these lakes has been indiscriminate enough to dilute that gene pool.  But IF there is still enough of the native strain genetics in the walleye population, these fish may be being managed all wrong.  I KNOW the native river strain walleye in the Black, Current, Eleven Point, and Spring rivers have superior genetics, and in my opinion they are being managed for the wrong goals.  These fish have the potential to grow to world record sizes.  You can't say that about very many game fish in the Ozarks.  Smallmouth or largemouth...no way you'll ever see a 20 pound largemouth or a 10 pound smallmouth in the Ozarks.  But there IS the potential to see 20 pound or better walleye, IF they were allowed to grow to that size.  But harvest is the default position of nearly all walleye anglers because they are allegedly so good to eat (personally I find them slightly inferior to bluegill, crappie, and small bass).  And there are enough decent walleye anglers to catch nearly all of them before they can grow to trophy size.  It would take a change in the mentality of walleye anglers as much as regulations to change this, but I'd really love to see a slot limit imposed on walleye with 30 inches being the over, along with that change in angler attitudes that would make catch and release of walleye as prevalent as it is with bass.

Al, It't not that we mis-understand him. We literally want him to make a semi-reasonable comparison which you did. While illegal gigging is in fact illegal, Iagree with your assessment. I also would say that I could theoretically cover miles and acres of water with a boat gigging while I could literally cover yards or sq. yards while spearfishing reducing the likely hood that I would actually run across that larger fish. Couple that with the fact that one activity is generally done in a river or smaller river arms and the other limited to lakes.  

One could also claim that spearfishing targets larger fish completely due to the fact that nobody is going to shoot a questionable fish. One has to risk breaking the law if they only target fish exactly the length limit which I'm not going to do. So sure I'm not going to be shoot 18" fish I'm going to target 20"+ because I have to make a judgement call underwater, in limited viability, that will protect my legal status. Once again that argument wasn't ever made though. 

I would also agree the rod and reel fisherman cannot make the fish bite and the spear fisherman can shoot IF he see's the fish. I really think this is the biggest issue that rod and reel fisherman have with it. They feel they are at a disadvantage compared to the spear fisherman. Once again, not the original argument made. I would also say that one can improve their chances of catching those large Walleye, through other methods in specific locations, in specific times of the year. A significant number of those anglers that make the claim that spear fishing is un-ethical are also the same ones fishing those areas in the time of year that congregate those larger fish. When they drop those walleye into their live well their claim is often, it's a put and take fishery. See where I'm going here? You cant fish the pothole trying to catch trophy walleye using live bait with the intent of keeping that fish and then turn around and beat the drum that spear fishermen are decimating the population of walleye. Much like the tourney guy berating the guys eating the bass and then dumping out dead fish after the tournament. The end result is effectively the same. My opinion isn't that MoCarp is specifically doing this but a lot of people that agree with his assessment are.

I would also agree its not genetics, that's why minimum length limits are set so we have an opportunity to pass on those genetics. Once again, the mass of the discussion was on walleye, striper, and panfish. One is a rapid growth, rapid breeding group of fish the other 2 are effectively put and take. The biologist claim there is essentially zero reproduction going on. 

Those world record class walleye that came from the fisheries being discussed here are likely the last remaining genetics from those river walleye. The fact is those fish are likely gone due to habitat degradation(dams being built) and rod and reel fisherman doing exactly what I have posted above. Fishing using methods that specifically target those fish when they congregate and are easier to harvest. Not because in the 80's and 90's spear fishing was wildly popular. Frankly if we never get back to those size fish, it also wont be because spear fishing alone wiped them out unless the popularity of spear fishing blows up exponentially. So based on that where do you draw the line on the regulations on what method is and isn't acceptable? It's largely done by the court of public opinion even though we would hope its at least to some degree factually based.

That is where MoCarp comes in trying to alter the court of public opinion. Maybe that court likes the random comparison that don't seem to me to hold water, google shock and awe, stretch data but I don't. I want to know why he makes the links he makes and how he comes to his conclusions. That's exactly why I started demanding answers instead of letting him drive the conversation down every side road in the state but he didn't want to play along. 

Which lead me to the conclusion he either doesn't really want to explain his position(even though his post history says otherwise) or he is just stirring the pot. 

If nothing else I bumped up my post count and community reputation. After all that is what social media and public forums are all about right?

 

 

 

[fishinwrench]

14 minutes ago, Flysmallie said:

We can't get rid of you no matter what craziness you spew, there are boats that need repair. 

😄 If I got rid of everyone I thought was crazy I'd be one lonely son-of-a-gun.   There are plenty of guys out there that work on boats and keep all their true thoughts and opinions to themselves.  How can you trust a phoney/sneaky guy like that though? 😉

[Huntingducks117]

1 hour ago, Al Agnew said:

In part, it is a bit of jealousy on the part of the rod and reel angler. 

 

This comment is the root of all the issues that people have with spearfishing.  It is the tragedy of the commons.  If I can't or don't want to spearfish, then nobody should be able to.  Most people that have an issue with spearfishing have never even been diving in our lakes, let alone tried to spearfish,to actually see how skittish fish are, and how few trophy size fish (8 + pounders) you actually see while you are down there, and how difficult spearfishing actually is.  They have a perceived notion that it is as easy as going down and picking out which trophy you want to shoot.  Not the case.

Spearfishing is limited to 1/2 of the daily limit of rod and reel anglers, has a shortened season, and spear fishermen still have to abide by the length limits.   I would bet money that the number of big fish taken out of the lake annually by spear fishermen is a small fraction of what is harvested by rod and reel anglers.  As far as catch and release is considered, I am spearfishing for food and for the fun of diving with the fish, not for numbers.  It's hard to catch and release deer while hunting as well, yes you can pass up the big deer, but you can also pass up the big fish if you choose to do so. 

Like you mentioned in your last paragraph, how many rod and reel anglers are actually releasing the large walleye and crappie they catch?  

  

[fishinwrench]

11 minutes ago, Devan S. said:

One could also claim that spearfishing targets larger fish completely due to the fact that nobody is going to shoot a questionable fish. One has to risk breaking the law if they only target fish exactly the length limit which I'm not going to do. So sure I'm not going to be shoot 18" fish I'm going to target 20"+ because I have to make a judgement call underwater, in limited viability, that will protect my legal status

Excellent point there!  Never even considered that. 

See how much smarter I am becoming?

[Quillback]

I'd be on board with a max length on walleye, but to be fair, it should apply to all harvest methods, not just to spear fishermen.  

And I am convinced that on the big reservoirs, the harvest by spearfishermen in negligible compared to hook and line harvest.  You could ban spearfishing completely and I am convinced that doing so would not lead to the return of large, world record sized fish.  

[Ham]

9 hours ago, Huntingducks117 said:

 

Like you mentioned in your last paragraph, how many rod and reel anglers are actually releasing the large walleye and crappie they catch?  

  

I do. I don’t keep crappie over 13.5 inches or walleye over 25 inches, but that’s just me. 

[MOPanfisher]

I usually go one step further, I just don't catch big fish.  Makes it easier.

[ness]

On 7/11/2018 at 7:17 PM, ness said:

Here’s a cure: Watch 2 or 3 episodes of “Leave It to a Beaver” and see how real life problems are solved 😄 I’m currently enjoying the episode where Mrs. Landers comes to dinner and Larry, Whitey and Gilbert spy on them from a tree. I won’t spoil it, but it’s some pretty good stuff and everybody’s happy by the time the credits roll. 

Well, hell. Just when I thought I had the perfect, idyllic solution to the nastiness I see this in episode 19 of season 3:

 

Dang it!!